The Beethoven Experience

[Droell]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well you've lost me there Droell! I think he was born on Feb 20th - in this life, Marple (after the great detective) as he/she is now known was born at the beginning of Feb. Music loving as my dear cat is, she needs to learn to sit rather than collapse on the stall!

A very Czerny-sort of answer, I think. Apologies to be difficult.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Droell:
Hello Chaszz:

No offense taken, but to make your point, you need a basic knowledge of metaphysics. More than I can recite here, unfortunately. The essential guidelines are that each specis is (are?) unique & souls from one cannot migrate to another. Any more than they can cross-breed. Another basic rule is that animals which we, as humans, do not individually name & which, in general, do not respond to a name, have herd (eg, group) souls, not individual ones. Cattle are an interesting group. The vast numbers bred to slaughter are most likely part of a vast group soul. Amish milk cows, and the sacred cows of India, are most likely individuals. As for transmigration, from human to animal & back: Generally no, not possible. I am prepared to hear exceptions from India.

Does that mean that even the meanest animal, the slightest insect, does not suffer? Of course they suffer, and humans are often the cause. I've been a vegetarian since 1984.

In my teens I read many of books on the subject of metaphysics so I can relate to many of the ideas you present here, but they are too off-topic to respond to. But for the record when I was 4 years old i told my teachers my parents were German and for a long time after I was obsessed with all things Germanic. Even though in reality I am just about as English as you can get! But my miserable existance in this life indicates some seriously bad karmic debt being repaid. So I was more likely Hitler than Ludvig!!



------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Don't forget the drama of Beethoven's hair is on BBC2 tonight at 11.20pm - the write up describes him as having more lead than Bonnie and Clyde!

I caught the last 15mins or so of this and watched with interest. I can accept the lead poisioning theory as being influential concerning Beethoven's behaviour and illnesses, however was any evidence produced that could conclusively place the hair as being Beethoven's or at least from Beethoven's time? I personally saw another lock in a museum in a Palace frequented by Beethoven outside Budapest.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Michael]

Originally posted by Rod:
I caught the last 15mins or so of this and watched with interest. I can accept the lead poisioning theory as being influential concerning Beethoven's behaviour and illnesses, however was any evidence produced that could conclusively place the hair as being Beethoven's or at least from Beethoven's time? I personally saw another lock in a museum in a Palace frequented by Beethoven outside Budapest.

As far as I can remember from the book, they are hoping to get some DNA from authenticated bone fragments and will compare this with the results from the lock of hair.

Michael

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I caught the last 15mins or so of this and watched with interest. I can accept the lead poisioning theory as being influential concerning Beethoven's behaviour and illnesses, however was any evidence produced that could conclusively place the hair as being Beethoven's or at least from Beethoven's time? I personally saw another lock in a museum in a Palace frequented by Beethoven outside Budapest.

Yes, the fascinating and moving story of how that particular lock of hair came into the possession of Ira Brilliant was the main thrust of the programme, you should have watched the first 45 mins! You are right that there are other lockets in existence.

Personally I have difficulty with the conclusions or at least the means they state may have produced such high levels of lead, such as spa water, lead piping and even the wine - all these were enjoyed by thousands, not just Beethoven and surely they too would have suffered similar afflictions? It is more likely in my opinion that if these lead levels are correct and have not been contaminated in some way over the years, that it was a result of some medication he was prescribed, possibly in a quack attempt to cure his deafness?

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 06-24-2005).]

[Droell]

Originally posted by Rod:
So I was more likely Hitler than Ludvig!!

Hitler was Austrian. So you are saved by a whisker.

[Droell]

Originally posted by Peter:

Personally I have difficulty with the conclusions or at least the means they state may have produced such high levels of lead, such as spa water, lead piping and even the wine - all these were enjoyed by thousands, not just Beethoven and surely they too would have suffered similar afflictions?

When I first heard the story, and the likely cause, cracked lead-glazed pottery, I thought, how so like the man, alas! Add to the story of the threadbare dressing gown, the scattered papers, etc.

Most people know better than to use chipped crockery, but most people don't penny-pinch as badly as Herr Ludwig. Doesn't seem as if, in his final years, he entertained much & anyway, when you're deaf & everything has to be written out for you, the casual neighbor warning in the casual way, might not make it into Beethoven's head. As was pointed out in Chassz's foreward, Beethoven went deaf because he refused to listen. I heard a big honcho clairvoyant say that about him once, and it rang true.

My father used to save old bread wrappers & re-use. Nobody told him the ink on the outside was lead-loaded.

Gimmie an excuse & I will write a post on Beethoven's methods of composition. Stuff I don't think you've heard before. A tease: What well-known movement of a well-known sonata is based on a penny dancing on the head of a drum?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Droell:
When I first heard the story, and the likely cause, cracked lead-glazed pottery, I thought, how so like the man, alas! Add to the story of the threadbare dressing gown, the scattered papers, etc.

Most people know better than to use chipped crockery, but most people don't penny-pinch as badly as Herr Ludwig. Doesn't seem as if, in his final years, he entertained much & anyway, when you're deaf & everything has to be written out for you, the casual neighbor warning in the casual way, might not make it into Beethoven's head. As was pointed out in Chassz's foreward, Beethoven went deaf because he refused to listen. I heard a big honcho clairvoyant say that about him once, and it rang true.

My father used to save old bread wrappers & re-use. Nobody told him the ink on the outside was lead-loaded.

Gimmie an excuse & I will write a post on Beethoven's methods of composition. Stuff I don't think you've heard before. A tease: What well-known movement of a well-known sonata is based on a penny dancing on the head of a drum?

Well interesting as your chipped crockery theory is, I'm not convinced. For one, Beethoven ate out in different taverns frequently. The nephew lived with Beethoven for many years and did not develop the same symptoms. He also had many different servants who cooked his meals over the years. I also doubt that the many poor people in Vienna could have afforded to have been so scrupulous either about their crockery.

So it still seems to me that if the excessively high levels of lead found in the hair are correct, then this lead must have been administered by quack medical means or perhaps someone was deliberately poisoning him, although I'm not quite sure how you'd do this with lead or that it was the natural choice for those with malicious intent! Seriously though I don't believe that and this is perhaps one of those mysteries to add to the list!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 06-25-2005).]

[Michael]

Another strange discovery from examination of the hair, is that Beethoven, who suffered all his life, didn't appear to take opiates. One suggestion for this was that Beethoven "did not choose to take something that would dehumanize him because morphine is, after all, a loss of human freedom and human will".
Beethoven scholar, William Meredith takes a different view and suggests that B suffered needlessly at the end of his life - especially considering that his abdomen had been opened three times to drain fluid - and that he received barbaric treatment even by the standards of the day.

Michael

[Rod]

Originally posted by Droell:
Hitler was Austrian. So you are saved by a whisker.

I know Hitler was Austrian, but both nations could be construed as 'Germanic' and it was Germany in particular that was the subject of Hitler's obsession.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-26-2005).]

[Sorrano]

Symphonies 6 and 7 are now available at the site but the downloads are abominably slow on their end (I have cable).

[raymond]

For those who have been aware too late of the download availability of the Beethoven symphonies on the BBC 3 , and I was late for sympnies 1-5, is there a way to download those symphonies.
TIA
Raymond

[This message has been edited by raymond (edited 07-02-2005).]

[Peter]

Very fine performances last night of Beethoven's 2nd, 4th and 5th piano concertos by Murray Perahia, especially the 5th which was outstanding. This brought the very enjoyable BBC Beethoven series to a rousing conclusion.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

All three episodes of Charles Hazlewood's 'Beethoven Uncovered' series shown on BBC FOUR are now available online via the BBC's new broadband media console - go to
www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/broadband/mediawrapper/consoles/beethoven?redirect=console.shtml&nbram=1&bbram=1&n bwm=1&bbwm=1

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
All three episodes of Charles Hazlewood's 'Beethoven Uncovered' series shown on BBC FOUR are now available online via the BBC's new broadband media console - go to
www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/broad band/mediawrapper/consoles/beethoven?redirect=console.shtml&nbram=1&bbram=1&n bwm=1&bbwm=1

Got to listen to the first one. Very nice. Enjoyed it!



------------------
'Truth and beauty joined'