The Beethoven Experience

[robinemery]

Hi,

For those Beethoven lover's in this forum, you might be interested to know that BBC Four and BBC Radio 3 will be running a selection of Beethoven programmes throughout June.

BBC Four programmes: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/music/f...eethoven.shtml

BBC Radio 3 programmes: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/beethoven/

Hear the great composer's complete works throughout the week of 5th-10th June.

Availability:
BBC Four is available in the UK on cable, satellite and Freeview.

BBC Radio 3 is available in the UK on cable, satellite, Freeview and across the world at http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/



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Robin Emery
Webmaster
http://www.uk-dab.info
DAB Digital Radio News and Information for the UK

[Peter]

Originally posted by robinemery:
Hi,

For those Beethoven lover's in this forum, you might be interested to know that BBC Four and BBC Radio 3 will be running a selection of Beethoven programmes throughout June.

Yes thanks for those links!

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

The BBC got off to a good start with their marathon Beethoven series. Last night we had a fascinating masterclass with Barenboim discussing Op.57, Op.31/1 and Op.109 followed by the film Eroica which has been shown previously. Tonight it's Yehudi Menuhin performing the Violin Concerto.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
The BBC got off to a good start with their marathon Beethoven series. Last night we had a fascinating masterclass with Barenboim discussing Op.57, Op.31/1 and Op.109 followed by the film Eroica which has been shown previously. Tonight it's Yehudi Menuhin performing the Violin Concerto.

I watched both last night (BBC TV4). The performance in Eroica is not a good one to my mind, Gardiner's direction is pretty lame. The only part i liked without reservation was the coda of the finale!

In the masterclass I found it amusing watching them struggle with those cursed Steinways and spending so long discussing tiny fragments of the score, oblivious of the fact that as a whole the rendition was a mess (op57).

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-31-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I watched both last night (BBC TV4). The performance in Eroica is not a good one to my mind, Gardiner's direction is pretty lame. The only part i liked without reservation was the coda of the finale!

In the masterclass I found it amusing watching them struggle with those cursed Steinways and spending so long discussing tiny fragments of the score, oblivious of the fact that as a whole the rendition was a mess (op57).

Well this was a masterclass and tiny details are what get discussed! Having said that, Lang Lang is not to my liking, but I thought Barenboim had some valuable insights into the music, particularly Op.109.

I would have thought you would at least have warmed to his response about images and music? He said that music didn't suggest images to him, but images suggested music!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-31-2005).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well this was a masterclass and tiny details are what get discussed! Having said that, Lang Lang is not to my liking, but I thought Barenboim had some valuable insights into the music, particularly Op.109.

I would have thought you would at least have warmed to his response about images and music? He said that music didn't suggest images to him, but images suggested music!

So where and when does the bigger picture get discussed!? Op109 was probably the best effort, but in some respects (to my mind) 109 is interpretationally less problematic than the other sonatas discussed.

Yes it is good to hear someone saying that the music does not suggest images. It must be good because I have said the same often enough myself.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-31-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
So where and when does the bigger picture get discussed!? Op109 was probably the best effort, but in some respects (to my mind) 109 is interpretationally less problematic than the other sonatas discussed.

Yes it is good to hear someone saying that the music does not suggest images. It must be good because I have said the same often enough myself.

There were 3 different works presented by three different artists with already established careers. If you want the bigger picture then you could spend a year working at and discussing op.109 which to my mind (along with the other late sonatas) presents more interpretation problems than the technically more demanding Op.57. As it is only 30 minutes were available for each work!

You seem to have little understanding or patience with the poor old pianist who has a near impossible task in realising Beethoven's scores. It isn't enough to blame modern instruments, and I do find it odd that you condemn every musician who dares to perform on them, regardless of the quality of their individual musicianship - I have heard some dire interpretations on original instruments as well! The instrument does not determine the quality of the musician.



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
There were 3 different works presented by three different artists with already established careers. If you want the bigger picture then you could spend a year working at and discussing op.109 which to my mind (along with the other late sonatas) presents more interpretation problems than the technically more demanding Op.57. As it is only 30 minutes were available for each work!

You seem to have little understanding or patience with the poor old pianist who has a near impossible task in realising Beethoven's scores. It isn't enough to blame modern instruments, and I do find it odd that you condemn every musician who dares to perform on them, regardless of the quality of their individual musicianship - I have heard some dire interpretations on original instruments as well! The instrument does not determine the quality of the musician.

Then please explain why most versions of op109 I have heard are of a fairly consistent nature whereas the other two I have heard a whole variety of things, mostly bad?

Please explain further why I, without a single lesson of musical education, could see why the performer's overall concept of op57 was a mess, whereas Barenboim could not?

You are fully aware I wan't even concerned with the piano in this context so don't try to twist it Peter! I have said myself some interpretations I have on the fortepiano are truely terrible.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-31-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

Then please explain why most versions of op109 I have heard are of a fairly consistent nature whereas the other two I have heard a whole variety of things, mostly bad?

Please explain further why I, without a single lesson of musical education, could see why the performer's overall concept of op57 was a mess, whereas Barenboim could not?

You are fully aware I wan't even concerned with the piano in this context so don't try to twist it Peter! I have said myself some interpretations I have on the fortepiano are truely terrible.

I can't explain why you thought Lang Lang's performance of op.57 was a mess since I don't know what your thinking is - perhaps you can enlarge on this rather than merely stating it was a mess? Perhaps you can explain the points Barenboim missed? Barenboim was conducting a masterclass and he gave a positive lesson - it is no good coming out with a dismissive remark like 'mess' and having nothing constructive to say.

Interpretation is not set in stone - it is possible for more than one interpretation of a work and it is possible for musicians to agree to disagree! I agreed with most of the points Barenboim made, though of course given more time more could have been said.

I would suggest that the reason you have heard more bad performances of Op.57 (and I agree this is the case) is because it is a popular work and tends to attract younger virtuosos by its very nature who are perhaps coming at it from a wrong 'Romantic' perspective. Op.109 is a more reflective personal work and therefore perhaps those pianists who are attracted to these late sonatas are coming to the music with greater experience?

I didn't twist the argument as you yourself referred to the 'cursed Steinways'! Knowing your stance on modern instruments and the fact that you have never said a good word about any of the great Beethoven interpreters from the past such as Schnabel, one can only conclude that it is the over-riding issue for you.

Personally I found the programme enjoyable and informative - you don't have to like or agree with everything but it is interesting to hear a musician of Barenboim's stature discussing his ideas.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-31-2005).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

I can't explain why you thought Lang Lang's performance of op.57 was a mess since I don't know what your thinking is - perhaps you can enlarge on this rather than merely stating it was a mess? Perhaps you can explain the points Barenboim missed? Barenboim was conducting a masterclass and he gave a positive lesson - it is no good coming out with a dismissive remark like 'mess' and having nothing constructive to say.

Interpretation is not set in stone - it is possible for more than one interpretation of a work and it is possible for musicians to agree to disagree! I agreed with most of the points Barenboim made, though of course given more time more could have been said.

I would suggest that the reason you have heard more bad performances of Op.57 (and I agree this is the case) is because it is a popular work and tends to attract younger virtuosos by its very nature who are perhaps coming at it from a wrong 'Romantic' perspective. Op.109 is a more reflective personal work and therefore perhaps those pianists who are attracted to these late sonatas are coming to the music with greater experience?

I didn't twist the argument as you yourself referred to the 'cursed Steinways'! Knowing your stance on modern instruments and the fact that you have never said a good word about any of the great Beethoven interpreters from the past such as Schnabel, one can only conclude that it is the over-riding issue for you.

Personally I found the programme enjoyable and informative - you don't have to like or agree with everything but it is interesting to hear a musician of Barenboim's stature discussing his ideas.

Mess = messing about with a tempo that was already to slow - the first movement of op57 should be played straight like the Tan mp3 i provided. What i heard last night was awful.

Even the more established performers still make more of a mess of Op57 and 31/1 than 109. I restate in certain respects 109 is more obvious to interpret. Although I do have an awful CD of 109 where again the tempo is messed with throughout. Forced rubato at an already too slow underlying rythm does not good music make.

Regarding the Steinway matter, the piano makes the already difficult job of a good interpretation even harder.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Michael]

I found the whole programme utterly absorbing and at the same time frustrating because it highlighted for me how little I really know about the art of music.

Michael

[Peter]

Originally posted by Michael:
I found the whole programme utterly absorbing and at the same time frustrating because it highlighted for me how little I really know about the art of music.

Michael

Yes Michael - even though I teach I hopefully have enough humility to realise there is still an awful lot to learn! On to the Menuhin tonight which I'm looking forward to.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Mess = messing about with a tempo that was already to slow - the first movement of op57 should be played straight like the Tan mp3 i provided. What i heard last night was awful.

Even the more established performers still make more of a mess of Op57 and 31/1 than 109. I restate in certain respects 109 is more obvious to interpret. Although I do have an awful CD of 109 where again the tempo is messed with throughout. Forced rubato at an already too slow underlying rythm does not good music make.

Regarding the Steinway matter, the piano makes the already difficult job of a good interpretation even harder.

Well Beethoven himself marks several tempo changes in the score and we know he was never one for playing in a straight tempo throughout - there are changes of mood in this piece. Beethoven also marks several tempo changes within the first and last movements of Op.109.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-31-2005).]

[Uniqor]

sorry if this sounds a little off ttopic, but do notice mr lang lang's rather funky (?)facial expression, when he plays tchaikovsky's concerto 1

but generally, i think the chinese play great piano - li yundi's chopin... yum, so delicate, so subtle, so poetic, so chopin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well Beethoven himself marks several tempo changes in the score and we know he was never one for playing in a straight tempo throughout - there are changes of mood in this piece. Beethoven also marks several tempo changes within the first and last movements of Op.109.

I doubt if Beethoven indicated in the score what I regulalry find fault with op57.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin