sketches for the Tenth symphony

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Of course it is impossible to answer that question. What we have is Dr. Cooper's scholarly interpretation of Beethoven's sketches.

Hofrat

To be honest I fail to see even an academic need for such a project. I'm sure there are plenty of other areas of Beethoven reseach that could be attended to. Musically, passing this off as 'Beethoven's 10th' is somewhat fraudulent. But 'you pays your money, you takes your choice'.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:
To be honest I fail to see even an academic need for such a project. I'm sure there are plenty of other areas of Beethoven research that could be attended to. Musically, passing this off as 'Beethoven's 10th' is somewhat fraudulent. But 'you pays your money, you takes your choice'.

Robert Schumann wrote in 1838: "To write the history of Beethoven's inner and outer life would be a wonderful undertaking." By "inner history," Schumann meant the growth of Beethoven's musical ideas, motives, and themes into completed works. In other words, Schumann indorces the study of the sketchbooks.

One of the ways to study the sketch books is to "realize" them. That is to say, to work out the sketches to completion. That is what Dr. Cooper did with his "realization" of the sketches of Beethoven's 10th symphony. There is no fraud here as Cooper himself in his score calls it a "realization and completion."

If you want to scrap realizations and completions, you may start with Mozart's "Requiem" and Puccini's "Turandot."

Hofrat

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

If you want to scrap realizations and completions, you may start with Mozart's "Requiem" and Puccini's "Turandot."

Hofrat

Don't tempt Rod, he 'd have no hesitation there! You are right to point out the importance of studying the sketchbooks and a realisation is a step further which gives us an idea - an idea though and no way can it be thought of as how Beethoven would have completed the work. Cooper is a talented musicologist but he is not a genius and he is not Beethoven. We should also consider Elgar's express wish that on no account were the sketches for his 3rd symphony to be realised - now I know Anthony Paine did a first rate job, but you have to ask whether it was ethical considering the composer's stated wish?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:


If you want to scrap realizations and completions, you may start with Mozart's "Requiem" and Puccini's "Turandot."

Hofrat

Well I'm sure you are aware there are some relatively minor Beethoven pieces that have been 'completed' by others long before the 10th, mostly by Hess. That is one thing and I can accept it as the works in question were already fully composed and the fragments surviving were substantial enough to do something with. But with this '10th' we are dealing with something quite quite different. You must admit that. I can live without it. No point dreaming about what might have been...which is all Cooper's effort is at the end of the day, a fantasy.

You may know Beethoven wasn't so impressed with the Mozart Requiem.

Dont speak to me about Puccini!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-10-2005).]

[untamed_personality]

Is that right? Beethoven wasn't impressed with the Requiem? I thought he'd merely rejected it as a model for the MS, as it was only half-complete. I know masses up until B's time had largely descended into quasi-opera, but Mozart's Requiem (and, indeed, parts of K.427) can hardly be included in such an 'umbrella'.

The mass up until the end of the Offertorium is a masterpiece, and complete at that apart from the Lacrimosa. Surely tacking on a Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei is different from 'realizing' a few fragments that exist only in sketches. Personally, I'm eternally grateful to Sussmayr for completing the mass, irrespective of the level of his talents.

As for Turandot, didn't Toscanini direct the first performance and lay his baton down at the point Puccini left it?

Btw, those last couple of paragraphs were more aimed at Hofrat.

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Seizing fate by the throat...

[This message has been edited by untamed_personality (edited 08-10-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

You may know Beethoven wasn't so impressed with the Mozart Requiem.

Well he preferred the Cherubini (I don't!) which isn't quite the same as not being impressed.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well he preferred the Cherubini (I don't!) which isn't quite the same as not being impressed.

Either way, reading between the lines I think it was Cherubini's concept of the requiem that was more in line with Beethoven's own vision.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-10-2005).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by gprengel:
There are not many people who know as much about the world of Beethoven like Hofrat!

Gerd

I suggest some people here do. Maybe even more!!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-10-2005).]

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by untamed_personality:
Personally, I'm eternally grateful to Sussmayr for completing the mass, irrespective of the level of his talents.

As for Turandot, didn't Toscanini direct the first performance and lay his baton down at the point Puccini left it?

If one may be eternally grateful to Sussmayr, may others be eternally grateful to Cooper (Beethoven's 10th), Newbould (Schubert's 7th and 10th), Payne (Elgar's 3rd), and Alfano (Turandot)?


Hofrat

[waldstein]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well he preferred the Cherubini (I don't!) which isn't quite the same as not being impressed.

is it true that constanze asked beethoven to complete the requiem but he refused?

[sjwenger]

Originally posted by gprengel:
I am glad you like my music, sjenger! To answer your question - no, I don't sell any CD's, but if you cannot download and burn a CD from the MP3 files, I could send you a CD.

Gerd

That is very kind of you. I did listen intently to the files you posted on-line. Thank you for sharing them.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

If one may be eternally grateful to Sussmayr, may others be eternally grateful to Cooper (Beethoven's 10th), Newbould (Schubert's 7th and 10th), Payne (Elgar's 3rd), and Alfano (Turandot)?


Hofrat

Sussmayr wasn't of course the only one to complete the requiem. Complete however is the operative word - a substantial portion of the requiem was composed by Mozart.
I seriously don't think Cooper's realisation (interesting though from an academic viewpoint) can be considered as Beethoven's 10th as this work was in a far more embryonic state. To be quite frank you only have to compare his realisation to Beethoven's 9 symphonies to see that Beethoven would have done something so much better than this.

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Sorry to disagree but as a new poster here (and someone who is specially interested in Mozart) I do not believe that Mozart wrote the work we today call his Requiem, K626. I agree with the great German musicologist Gottfried Weber who said that this work was definitely NOT by Mozart.

It's a big subject but....in brief....K626 was a work manufactured as a publicity stunt to give the impression that the great Mozart died as a loyal son of the Catholic Church. Its real history (shrouded in mystery and obscured by lies, exaggerations and downright forgery) is as extraordinary as anything in musical history.

I know that the integrity of the work was defended by Maximilian Stadler in the 1820's against a long critical article by Gottfried Weber in the music journal 'Caelicia' and that Stadler posted a copy of his own feeble defence of the work to Beethoven (who seems to have been surprised by the controversy).

Did you know that Mozart actually wrote a Requiem which has completely disappeared ?

Regards

Robert Newman

[robert newman]

Sorry, but I don't believe Mozart had anything to do with the work that is today called 'Mozart's Requiem' (K626). It's quite a long story and I know that Beethoven himself was fooled by claims being made of it - but, just for the record, I believe Mozart wrote (and fully completed) a Requiem now lost. K626 was entirely manufactured by others.

Regards

Robert Newman

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Sorry, but I don't believe Mozart had anything to do with the work that is today called 'Mozart's Requiem' (K626). It's quite a long story and I know that Beethoven himself was fooled by claims being made of it - but, just for the record, I believe Mozart wrote (and fully completed) a Requiem now lost. K626 was entirely manufactured by others.

Regards

Robert Newman

Bummer! He sure fooled a lot of people, then, that do believe this was his work (minus the last part).