sketches for the Tenth symphony

[gprengel]

You all know that Mr. Cooper realised a symphonic movement based on sketches from Beethoven for a 10th symphony. I appreciate this work very much.

At
www.gerdprengel.de/symphony.html

I present some of those sketches and I bring up my theory that those sketches may have their origin in the Arioso dolente from the piano sonata op. 110 which was written just a few months earlier. Do you think that this is a reasonable thought?

Furthermore I present there my own 3 symphonic movements using some of those sketches. You may know my Scherzo already. New are movements #1 and #2. In particular new to you will be Beethoven's sketch for a second movement (Andante) which I built in there.

Maybe you take a look and share your impressions...

Regards
Gerd

[Peter]

Thanks for that Gerd - very interesting though I haven't had time yet to listen to your realisations. It's amazing how much there is always to learn about music - Op.110 was one of the sonatas I studied and played and I never noticed the similarity between the arioso and the famous Albinoni adagio!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by gprengel:
You all know that Mr. Cooper realised a symphonic movement based on sketches from Beethoven for a 10th symphony. I appreciate this work very much.
Regards
Gerd

But you are aware that in many circles Cooper's 'symphony' has been heavily critisised? I have such little respect for this '10th' that I have never made to effort to hear it even once!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

I think anyone attempting to complete a Beethoven symphony from sketches is inevitably going to attract criticism! However with the cd I have of Cooper he does give a fascinating background to these sketches. Studying Beethoven's sketches is very rewarding and gives an insight into the creative process - this link may be helpful - http://www.discourses.co.uk/beethoven.php4

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by gprengel:

I present some of those sketches and I bring up my theory that those sketches may have their origin in the Arioso dolente from the piano sonata op. 110 which was written just a few months earlier. Do you think that this is a reasonable thought?

Furthermore I present there my own 3 symphonic movements using some of those sketches. You may know my Scherzo already. New are movements #1 and #2. In particular new to you will be Beethoven's sketch for a second movement (Andante) which I built in there.

Maybe you take a look and share your impressions...

Regards
Gerd

I have listened to your realization of Beethoven's 10th symphony sketches as well as Dr. Cooper's realization. I commend you both for giving us a very scholarly glimpse at what Beethoven had in mind.


Hofrat

[sjwenger]

I very much admire this music. Do you sell tapes or CDs of your compositions?

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:
But you are aware that in many circles Cooper's 'symphony' has been heavily critisised? I have such little respect for this '10th' that I have never made to effort to hear it even once!

When it comes to realizations, it is my experience that the harshest critics are those who never made an effort to listen to the work.

Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

When it comes to realizations, it is my experience that the harshest critics are those who never made an effort to listen to the work.

Hofrat

You should do your homework on how Cooper created this piece of pseudo-Beethoven before you make comments like this.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[gprengel]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
I very much admire this music. Do you sell tapes or CDs of your compositions?

I am glad you like my music, sjenger! To answer your question - no, I don't sell any CD's, but if you cannot download and burn a CD from the MP3 files, I could send you a CD.

Gerd

[gprengel]

Originally posted by Rod:
You should do your homework on how Cooper created this piece of pseudo-Beethoven before you make comments like this.

What do you mean by doing your homework??? You never heard this piece before and you tell Hofrat to do some "homework"? There are not many people who know as much about the world of Beethoven like Hofrat!

Regarding the work of Cooper: I was so excited in 1987 when I heard that this realisation would be performed that I travelled from Germany to London as a young student just to attend this first performance. And I tell you, at this evening I was pretty dissapointed. But the more I listened to the work later on on CD, the more I began to love it - especially the slow introduction and the
last parts of the exposition and recapitulation and especially the wonderful Coda!

Only the parts dealing with the main theme to me are a bit stiff - that's why I changed the sketched main theme in my symphony to give more fire to it (but because of this I never would speak of a realisation of Beethoven's 10th symphony regarding my work - I just let mysef inspire me through these sketches to write something new of my own)

I think people should give Cooper's work more time really to unfold it's beauty, instead of criticizing it after hearing it only once (or not even once)

Gerd

[Peter]

Originally posted by gprengel:
What do you mean by doing your homework??? You never heard this piece before and you tell Hofrat to do some "homework"? There are not many people who know as much about the world of Beethoven like Hofrat!

Regarding the work of Cooper: I was so excited in 1987 when I heard that this realisation would be performed that I travelled from Germany to London as a young student just to attend this first performance. And I tell you, at this evening I was pretty dissapointed. But the more I listened to the work later on on CD, the more I began to love it - especially the slow introduction and the
last parts of the exposition and recapitulation and especially the wonderful Coda!

Only the parts dealing with the main theme to me are a bit stiff - that's why I changed the sketched main theme in my symphony to give more fire to it (but because of this I never would speak of a realisation of Beethoven's 10th symphony regarding my work - I just let mysef inspire me through these sketches to write something new of my own)

I think people should give Cooper's work more time really to unfold it's beauty, instead of criticizing it after hearing it only once (or not even once)

Gerd

My first reaction to Cooper actually was fairly favourable and there are some particularly lovely moments like that glorious slow theme which Cooper develps along the lines of the adagio in the 9th. I have greater problems with the Allegro which sounded quite Mendelssohnian (if there is such an expression!). It is always interesting to hear these realisations and I greatly admire the skill of the musicians who undertake this painstaking task, but we still have to keep in mind that Beethoven's 10th would have been very different from Cooper's presentation. We know from the sketchbooks themselves just how much Beethoven remoulded the initial ideas that came to him, but so long as this is kept in mind, it is a great opportunity to at least hear these ideas.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:
You should do your homework on how Cooper created this piece of pseudo-Beethoven before you make comments like this.

I have on CD two performances of the Cooper realization of the Beethoven 10th sketches. I have on CD Cooper's lecture on how he realized the Beethoven 10th sketches. And last but not least, I have a copy of the Cooper score. I even editted the Cooper score into Finale format. I have listened and read the work countless times. I think I have done my homework.

[ruudp]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
I have on CD two performances of the Cooper realization of the Beethoven 10th sketches. I have on CD Cooper's lecture on how he realized the Beethoven 10th sketches. And last but not least, I have a copy of the Cooper score. I even editted the Cooper score into Finale format. I have listened and read the work countless times. I think I have done my homework.

finale format?
Could you please send me that piece...I´m intriged...
many thnx in advance,
Ruud

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
I have on CD two performances of the Cooper realization of the Beethoven 10th sketches. I have on CD Cooper's lecture on how he realized the Beethoven 10th sketches. And last but not least, I have a copy of the Cooper score. I even editted the Cooper score into Finale format. I have listened and read the work countless times. I think I have done my homework.

And you seriously believe Beethoven's 10th, hade he completed it, would have been anything like this effort?



------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:
And you seriously believe Beethoven's 10th, had he completed it, would have been anything like this effort?

Of course it is impossible to answer that question. What we have is Dr. Cooper's scholarly interpretation of Beethoven's sketches.


Hofrat