Sure, Schindler is quoted by musicians who propagate the tempo flexibility (or overuse of rubato to some). This is currently dismissed as a Wagnarian, late romantic abberation after the war. Strangely enough however, it was also propagated earlier by distinctly non Wagnerians, such as Brahms). As a reaction to this (maybe due to the generation of musicians after the war associated with the Nazis), a call for clarity, orderliness and discipline started. (Just play what's written, don't interprete) Relatively modern inventions, such as the heavy continuous vibrato, which only became common practice in the 40's among regular musicians were also associated with this and a strong counter movement began, which also had its basis in the HIP movement. Nowerdays, most people regard the use of non-vibrato and strictness of tempo as their biggest achievements resulting in the clean sound of the period instruments, but I doubt whether that is the quintessence of music making of the past. Though I like some of the results of many of their recordings, and by the way, I posses all Immerseels recordings and attended many concert by him and others, I am dissapointed that most HIP musicians don't take early recordings more seriously as a source for musicological research and more generally, that they ignore evidence that conflicts with the current ideals such as the use of vibrato or portamento in baroque music (for example Geminiani described the use of continuous vibrato!). I don't say this because I especially like these effects by the way. Immerseel is aware of them (as described in for example his Debussy recording, where he describes having studied Debussy's Welte Mignon rolls or in his describtion of a recording by Clemens Kraus of a Strauss Waltz). Still, his recordings show little influence of it: no use of portamento and he is as many obsessed with the uniformity of phrasing, which is very uncharacteristic of all recorded evidence of the past. And like you, most musicians can hardly bear the sound of a portamento, so they don't use it even when playing Brahms. Joachim's recordings are full of it (not just to "some degree", nearly in every bar!). Listen to some recording of the beginning of the 20th century and you will notice that there is a fundamentally different approach to playing music compared to now. Not necessarily better (technically for sure it is not), but it makes one realise that the interpretation became far more uniform over time, for which I blame the making of the recording itself: Producers became obsessed with avoiding mistakes. Therefore, all musicians stopped taking risks (to avoid mistakes). Nowerdays, musicians are fundamentally more self conscious than in the past. What does this has to do with Beethoven interpretation? I think it's fair to assume that things did not change so quickly in the 19th century when there were little opportunities to listen to international musicians, so recordings of the 20th century may not be just dismissed as a romantic abberation completely irrelevant to the 19the century music making, but instead may be relevant for music as early as Beethoven or even earlier. Not claiming that musicians then played Beethoven as he himself did. But for me, it just does not make sense that somewhere between Beethoven and Wagner changed more drastically and that we now are more close to "the truth". If the HIP movement is nearer the truth in playing early music, why do they fail to play music of Brahms and Elgar, from whom we have some much better understanding from recordings to know how their music really sounded, in a true historical way? For me, the answer is that their ideal is not to recreate the way of music making of the past, but rather trying to find evidence to defend their own ideals, while ignoring other evidence that conflict with these ideals.
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elmar -
I think it inevitable in the 18th century that there were great discrepancies in performance practice and ability just from one town to the next, let alone in different countries. Attempts were made to standardize matters regarding ornamentation, however pitch and tempo varied considerably as did keyboard tuning methods. Provincial towns also had to make do with the orchestral forces and talents that were available to them and frequently different instruments were substituted. These days we are in a much more fortunate position - overall superior teaching and recording have led to a universal approach that seeks the ideal interpretation as intended by the composer. I personally think the HIP movement have done us a great favour in opening our eyes (ears!) to the changes that occurred throughout the 19th century from tempo (which slowed down) to the size of orchestras.
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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Your reply was long so i will be brief! Even Immerseel quotes Schindler on the rubato issue, but in any case I doubt the rubato in S's mind was the same as some of the gross exagerations i have heard.Originally posted by elmar:
.... why do they fail to play music of Brahms and Elgar, from whom we have some much better understanding from recordings to know how their music really sounded, in a true historical way? For me, the answer is that their ideal is not to recreate the way of music making of the past, but rather trying to find evidence to defend their own ideals, while ignoring other evidence that conflict with these ideals.
I am not totally against the use of vibrato, it should be used as an occasional ornament to add emphasis or at the end of a long note, not countinuous throughout virtually every note. Also portamento sounded ok on my period instrument recording of Beethoven quartets by the Eroica quartet. They used it subtly and it worked, but I have never liked it on modern strings.
Ultimately my reason for getting into the HIP scene was and is primarily aesthetic - if I thought it didn't sound better I wouldn't continue. But underlying this is my conviction that Beethoven knew his instruments and how to get the best out of them, instruments that are different to todays. I am the number 1 Handel fan too but I could not even consider listening to Handel performed 'modern', it sounds awful, I know (check my profile for the link to my Handel mp3 site).
Why do they fail to play music of Brahms and Elgar in a true historical way? Why play it at all??
Upon reflection, given your preference regarding the violin sonata recordings, perhaps you will like Battersby's too, the recording sound and indeed Battersby's playing style are similar. As i have said there are some moments in the Huve/Fleezanis set that I like and I have presented a track from the set here before (what greater honour can a recording get!?). But I listen to extracts from the two sets last night (op30/2 and op96) and much prefered the Schroder/Immerseel efforts, all things considered.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-05-2005).]Comment
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I'll have to take your word for the teaching, but the recording has got if anything worse from my experience, despite the improvement in technology.Originally posted by Peter:
overall superior teaching and recording have led to a universal approach that seeks the ideal interpretation as intended by the composer.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-05-2005).]Comment
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I'm not talking about recording quality (a completely separate issue). My point is that through recording people around the world have access to first class performances which was unimaginable in the 19th century. This (prior to the HIP movement) has contributed to a certain standardisation of performance practice.Originally posted by Rod:
I'll have to take your word for the teaching, but the recording has got if anything worse from my experience, despite the improvement in technology.
Regarding the teaching of musical instruments at least in my own area of the piano we no longer balance a coin on a pupil's wrist and whack them with a ruler if it falls off! It really wasn't until the 20th century that technique such as the use of the arm was properly understood from a teaching point of view - only highly gifted people through trial and error arrived at their own solutions.
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'Man know thyself'
[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-05-2005).]'Man know thyself'Comment
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just like how I learned to become a rock guitar hero...!Originally posted by Peter:
..... only highly gifted people through trial and error arrived at their own solutions.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
[B] Your reply was long so i will be brief! Even Immerseel quotes Schindler on the rubato issue, but in any case I doubt the rubato in S's mind was the same as some of the gross exagerations i have heard... Also portamento sounded ok on my period instrument recording of Beethoven quartets by the Eroica quartet.
The point I wanted to make is that HIP performers interpret historical evidence (mostly reports by musicians) within our modern context. "Gross exagerations" of rubato and "subtle" use of portamento are interpretations coloured by modern taste. For example, many violinist (like Joachim, Auer. Flesch etc.) warned against excessive or distasteful use of portamento. Such remarks interpreted by modern standards would suggest they would use it sparingly. Yet, if you listen to their recordings, most modern violinists would be disgusted by their use of slow portamento. The same holds for the use of rubato. What does "Gross exageration" mean without knowing what is the standard? If you think of it, you should become aware that whatever written reports we may have from Czerny, Schindler and many others, we still lack the context in which remarks they make about Beethoven's playing. To me, the HIP movement brought many nice and sometimes completely convincing recordings, but just how much they resemble true 19th or even older interpretations remains unknown. From what I have heard from Brahms interpretations (as said, a real testcase for the HIP movement, because because of recording we know much more about practices of their time than from Beethoven's time from which we have only written reports) I think they are still far away.elmarComment
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I stated my ultimate reason for all this was aesthetic and not historical. Forgive me but I am too exasperated to continue this debate.Originally posted by elmar:
The point I wanted to make is that HIP performers interpret historical evidence (mostly reports by musicians) within our modern context. "Gross exagerations" of rubato and "subtle" use of portamento are interpretations coloured by modern taste. For example, many violinist (like Joachim, Auer. Flesch etc.) warned against excessive or distasteful use of portamento. Such remarks interpreted by modern standards would suggest they would use it sparingly. Yet, if you listen to their recordings, most modern violinists would be disgusted by their use of slow portamento. The same holds for the use of rubato. What does "Gross exageration" mean without knowing what is the standard? If you think of it, you should become aware that whatever written reports we may have from Czerny, Schindler and many others, we still lack the context in which remarks they make about Beethoven's playing. To me, the HIP movement brought many nice and sometimes completely convincing recordings, but just how much they resemble true 19th or even older interpretations remains unknown. From what I have heard from Brahms interpretations (as said, a real testcase for the HIP movement, because because of recording we know much more about practices of their time than from Beethoven's time from which we have only written reports) I think they are still far away.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-07-2005).]Comment
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I would simply say that if we observe the markings Beethoven made (and in the later works he was very precise) we shan't go far wrong!Originally posted by elmar:
From what I have heard from Brahms interpretations (as said, a real testcase for the HIP movement, because because of recording we know much more about practices of their time than from Beethoven's time from which we have only written reports) I think they are still far away.
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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The 'standard' I use, that Elmer refers to, is by default my own, but it is based on spending more hours listening to Beethoven than Karajan and all the others put together...probably. I know what is good when I hear it regarding this subject matter if nothing else, and what is good enough for me should good enough for anybody, I leave it for them to decide. But remember, on Olympus everyone knows who is King!Originally posted by Peter:
I would simply say that if we observe the markings Beethoven made (and in the later works he was very precise) we shan't go far wrong!
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-07-2005).]Comment
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... But remember, on Olympus everyone knows who is King!
[/B][/QUOTE]
I missquote Beethoven here! I checked Thayer and it goes along the lines of 'In a monarchy everyone knows who is the leader'.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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"spending more hours listening to Beethoven than Karajan and all the others put together...probably. I know what is good when I hear it regarding this subject matter if nothing else, and what is good enough for me should good enough for anybody, I leave it for them to decide."
You probably listened to more Beethoven than Beethoven himself. Then You should know what's good for Beethoven indeed. Ever thought of publishing a list of recordings that are officially authorized by You and Beethoven? That would save us so much time.
elmarComment
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Well, go to the 'Authentic mp3' page at the main site and you'll hear my CD collection. But I hope you have been doing so already?Originally posted by elmar:
You probably listened to more Beethoven than Beethoven himself. Then You should know what's good for Beethoven indeed. Ever thought of publishing a list of recordings that are officially authorized by You and Beethoven? That would save us so much time.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-11-2005).]Comment
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