Announcement

**Rod** · 07-06-2005, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by elmar:
Great news for fortepiano lovers,

Paul Komen has made a recording of Opus 120 on Beethoven's own Graf. I have waited years for a recording of this work on fortepiano, but this recording was worth it. I have read that another recording has been made by Edmund Batterby on Naxos 8557384-85, both on fortepiano as on a Steinway.

That's great news, I've been waiting for this too. I have a very interesting recording of op110 and op126 on Beethoven's Graf, but is was done in the 60's and the piano does not sound in the best condition (or the recording!) compared to other Grafs I've heard. I presume it has been restored for Komens recording.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

**elmar** · 07-06-2005, 08:05 PM

Who is the performer of that recording? By that time, fortepiano's were strung with wrong material and sounded horrible. Paul Komen's recording sounds wonderful, quite comparable to his Op. 109 etc. recording on Edwin Beunks Graf.

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elmar

**Rod** · 07-08-2005, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by elmar:
Who is the performer of that recording? By that time, fortepiano's were strung with wrong material and sounded horrible. Paul Komen's recording sounds wonderful, quite comparable to his Op. 109 etc. recording on Edwin Beunks Graf.

The performer is Jorg Demus. The CD is available on Ars Musici label ('Beethovens Klavier' AM 1097-2).

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

**Rod** · 07-23-2005, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by elmar:
Great news for fortepiano lovers,

Paul Komen has made a recording of Opus 120 on Beethoven's own Graf. I have waited years for a recording of this work on fortepiano, but this recording was worth it. I have read that another recording has been made by Edmund Batterby on Naxos 8557384-85, both on fortepiano as on a Steinway.

I can't find the Komen CD anywhere here in London, but the Naxos version is due for release here in August. This link gives some info:
http://www.edmundbattersby.com/naxos/InTheStudio/Naxos-Battersby-Oct6-2003.pdf#search='Diabelli%20battersby'

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

**elmar** · 07-29-2005, 04:01 PM

You can find information on this disc on: http://www.musikansich.de/ausgaben/0...beethoven.html

You can order it on the JPC website http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9638221

best regards,

ELmar

**Rod** · 07-29-2005, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by elmar:
You can find information on this disc on: http://www.musikansich.de/ausgaben/0...beethoven.html

You can order it on the JPC website http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/9638221

best regards,

ELmar

Thanks ELmar, however forgive me but my German is not as good as it could be. I know it is available in France too and i have contacts there who can get it for me if it doesn't show up soon at HMV Oxford Street!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

**Rod** · 07-31-2005, 10:06 PM

I've just bought today Battersby's effort on Naxos and have give it a quick run through on my Walkman. It is a 2 CD set, one using a Steinway, the other a Graf copy. Firstly I can say I am not impressed by the sound quality of this recording. It is very close miked, so that the soundstage is unnatural and the differences between 'piano' and 'forte' playing becomes less apparent. Also it is performed in an accoustic thas has the cold barren feel of a concrete bunker. I immediately thought this must be a US concert hall and had a look at the production notes, I was almost correct - Canadian.

I then thought I should try the Steinway recording and the effect was exactly the same. I think these recordings were done on the cheap and thus wasted an opportunity.

All this before I even start considering the performance and the effect of the Graf on the music!

Maybe it will sound better on my hifi when I get home, but I'm sure Komen's effort must sound better than this as I've read some good reviews.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

**Rod** · 08-01-2005, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by Rod:

Maybe it will sound better on my hifi when I get home...

Little improvement. A totally unengaging recording, a medicore performance (although the graf produced some great effects when he got it right ), a waste of £10. But I have the Komen CD on order from France, which hopefully I'll present an excerpt or two at the mp3 page in due course.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-01-2005).]

**elmar** · 08-03-2005, 04:19 AM

Dear Rod,

Sorry about the german, but I could not find something in English.
I have not heard the Battersby recording yet, but the Komen recording sounds very natural. Good to know anyway, it lowers my expectations (CD not yet available here).
By the way, I have encountered a truly excellent recording of the violin sonatas of beethoven on period instruments: by Cyrill Huve and Jorja Fleezanis (on Cypres). http://www.stringsmagazine.com/issue...3/reviews.html I have heard many, but this is my favourite.

best regards,

Elmar

**Rod** · 08-03-2005, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by elmar:
Dear Rod,

Sorry about the german, but I could not find something in English.
I have not heard the Battersby recording yet, but the Komen recording sounds very natural. Good to know anyway, it lowers my expectations (CD not yet available here).
By the way, I have encountered a truly excellent recording of the violin sonatas of beethoven on period instruments: by Cyrill Huve and Jorja Fleezanis (on Cypres). http://www.stringsmagazine.com/issue...3/reviews.html I have heard many, but this is my favourite.

best regards,

Elmar

I have this recording of the violin sonatas, but in my opinion it is not so good. I read a very bad review of it here and had to agree with most of the reviewers comments. Firstly again I do not like the sound - too close miked (especially on the violin) and rather colourless just like with Battersby's effort. I like the instruments to be more distant and in a colourful ambient acoustic, but perhaps that is just my taste. Also I do not think the playing is of the highest order although there are some good moments here and there (I used the first movement of the Kreutzer from this set when we were at that point in the mp3 page).

Interesting that the reviewer points out the pianists lack of the use of the pedal, as indicated in the score, but it is well known Beethoven himself used the pedal even when it was not written and I think sometimes there is a necessity in the piano part for some occasional use of the pedal in this music even if it not in the score to enhance the dramatic effect.

I have another much older set of the violin sonatas on period instruments by Jos van Immerseel and Jaap Schoder (DHM label) with all the issues above addressed to a far more satisfactory degree. You will hear extracts from the last sonata when we get to it at the mp3 page. You will then understand my preference.

There is another set on the Nimbus label but it is pretty awful so avoid it.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-03-2005).]

**elmar** · 08-03-2005, 11:29 PM

Hi Rod,

I have the Immerseel recording too, as well as one by Leertouwer and other versions on modern instruments. The Immerseel recording is recorded in the Vleeschuis museum in Antwerpen, which has reverberant acoustics (It used to be a meat hall in the middle ages), which I don't especially like. But, that is a matter of taste of course. For me these readings lack a little of the energy and sponteneity (flexibility) that I do find in the Fleezanis reading. Most readings are too slowish and strict in beat to my taste. That is a general trend of all post-war recordings. The same old Toscanini-Furtwängler (flexibility versus strictness) controversy already existed in Beethovens time: Czerny and Schindler. I am more in favour of the flexibles, but most post-war recording favour the stricts (including most HIP performers). Both sides can refer to historical sources who are conflicting and socalled Urtexts have no solution for this either. If you just look at the timings of the first movement of the Kreutzer Sonata and compare Immerseel 13'51"; Leertouwer 14'17" with Isolde Menges/Arthur de Greef (1925)11'32" or Szigeti/Bartok (1940)11'14" and you see the timings already reflect a fundamentally different approach. The Fleezanis reading is somewhere inbetween these types of readings (timing 12'47", which is hectic in comparison to most modern readings, but certainly not when compared with most prewar versions). Fleezanis/Huve are definitively more on the flexible/quick side I prefer. Listen for example to the change of thempo at bar 91 in their reading and compare that with Immerseel/Schröder. I do however like Van Immerseels reading of the mondschein Sonata. There he uses a good deal of pedalling too, which is probably what you missed in Huve's reading.

best regards,

Elmar

**Rod** · 08-03-2005, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by elmar:
Hi Rod,

I have the Immerseel recording too, as well as one by Leertouwer and other versions on modern instruments. The Immerseel recording is recorded in the Vleeschuis museum in Antwerpen, which has reverberant acoustics (It used to be a meat hall in the middle ages), which I don't especially like. But, that is a matter of taste of course. For me these readings lack a little of the energy and sponteneity (flexibility) that I do find in the Fleezanis reading. Most readings are too slowish and strict in beat to my taste. That is a general trend of all post-war recordings. The same old Toscanini-Furtwängler (flexibility versus strictness) controversy already existed in Beethovens time: Czerny and Schindler. I am more in favour of the flexibles, but most post-war recording favour the stricts (including most HIP performers). Both sides can refer to historical sources who are conflicting and socalled Urtexts have no solution for this either. If you just look at the timings of the first movement of the Kreutzer Sonata and compare Immerseel 13'51"; Leertouwer 14'17" with Isolde Menges/Arthur de Greef (1925)11'32" or Szigeti/Bartok (1940)11'14" and you see the timings already reflect a fundamentally different approach. The Fleezanis reading is somewhere inbetween these types of readings (timing 12'47", which is hectic in comparison to most modern readings, but certainly not when compared with most prewar versions). Fleezanis/Huve are definitively more on the flexible/quick side I prefer. Listen for example to the change of thempo at bar 91 in their reading and compare that with Immerseel/Schröder. I do however like Van Immerseels reading of the mondschein Sonata. There he uses a good deal of pedalling too, which is probably what you missed in Huve's reading.

best regards,

Elmar

I accept that the Immerseel set is by and large at slower tempi, but within acceptable limits and as you say the performances are fairly strict in tempo which I like. Also the sound and the use of the pedal I prefer (i have Immerseels moonlight too which met with shock and horror when I presented the finale here as an mp3!). Huve is too well mannered even though the tempi are quck. Beethoven's playing I'm sure was not like this. I think Czerny is probably nearer the truth than Schindler. I restate that the violinist you favour is not the best to my ears even though Schroder my not be playing in the most authentic manner.

**elmar** · 08-04-2005, 02:12 AM

No way we can know who is nearer the truth nor how Beethoven himself played. All his pupils had their own agenda and reacted on local habits (played too slow, too quick, too much pedal etc.) by stating how the master himself played to have their final word. In the end its all a matter of personal taste I'm afraid. Modern HIP performances have shown many times to ignore historical facts if they dislike certain historical practices, for example the generous use of portamento has never been adopted by modern HIP performers who play Brahms and Schumann, contrary to all relevant recordings. Let alone the habit of non-practicing of the times of Mozart and Beethoven. I still am a great fan of historical instruments, but after hearing "historically informed performances" of Brahms works by many HIP performers, I'm convinced that they are not necassarily nearer "the truth " than performers on modern instruments, except for the use of their instruments. They simply ignore practices that were a fact (as recorded by Joachim and musicians only one generation later than Brahms), such as using portamento generously, because they hate it. Cognitive dissonance. Performers of our time (as for those of other times) follow in the first place the ideals of their time, above ideals of other times, even if they pretend otherwise. Nowerdays, the ideal is "clarity" above all, meaning in practice strictness of tempo, consequence/singularity of phrasing and above all "no hurrying". All modern recordings, HIP or non HIP stick to this ideal. If you don't, you will never get through to the next round the piano competition. Therefore, Czerny is now favoured, because his description of how Beethoven played fits better the current ideals. Probably next time Schindler will be favoured.

**Rod** · 08-04-2005, 03:48 PM

Well it is interesting that Schindler, who is usually branded as something of a fraudster, is quoted by many pianists to justify their overuse of rubato, but never mind. You mention portamento and that is interesting because I have read something on this matter. the text discussed some early scores that have string and finger indications on them. These indicated that portamento must have been used to some degree. Whatever, i'll say this, on modern strings it sounds awful, but on gut strings it sounds more acceptable to my ears.

I agree about clarity being the focus today at the expense of every other consideration. I have mentioned this myself before and critisised it, but I dont see the connection with strictness of tempo, to me it just makes the music sound too pretty and mannered. Beethoven's own playing was never described like that, on the contrary.

So I restate Huve is too well mannered for my taste. My principal concern with Immerseel is that he loves the moderator pedal a little too much.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-04-2005).]

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Diabelli variations on fortepiano

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