A Top five ranking of best musical moments of Ludwig,s music

[arielkofman]

Coming from the relative success of my last topic , I invite everyone to show preferences , making a top five ranking of the most moving , sublime , or exciting musical moments of Beethoven,.
It can be about a whole opus , movement , excerpt , or even a few seconds from the catalogue of the genius.
Here,s mine , it took a long time to decide!!!!
5 ---- benedictus of Mass op 123
4-----Cavatina from op 130
3------3 movement from op 27 nº
2 (well played , of course)
2 ------2º movement of 7º symphony
1 -----Op 73 , 2º movement

Well, I wait for yours!!!!!
Ariel

[Nightklavier]

5 - Symphony No. 7 (Presto)
4 - Romance for Violin and Orchestra No. 2 Op. 50
3 - Piano Sonata No. 8 Op. 13
2 - Piano Concerto No. 5 Op. 73
1 - Piano Sonata No. 14 Op. 27

I can't just pick the best "movements" or "excerpts" even, so I hope you don't mind me listing an entire opus that may contain multiple movements, though my fifth one is just the Presto movement of the 7th and my fourth is a one movement piece. While my ranking may seem stereotypical or cliche, these are simply the most moving (to me) of Beethoven's works. I have to mention Moonlight sonata because THAT was what got me into Beethoven in the first place.

[Droell]

Originally posted by arielkofman:
Coming from the relative success of my last topic , I invite everyone to show preferences , making a top five ranking of the most moving , sublime , or exciting musical moments of Beethoven,.
It can be about a whole opus , movement , excerpt , or even a few seconds from the catalogue of the genius.
Ariel

With all respect to Ariel, how about something wicked?

The five WORST PERFORMED pieces or movements. Fragments of Beethoven's genius that performers, for whatever reasons, have just not figured out. Here's mine:

9th symphony, first movement
5th symphony, finale
8th symphony, last two movements
3rd piano concerto, first movement

Without citing Wellington's Victory or the Choral Fantasia, it seems I can only think of four.

[Ateach Asc]

Originally posted by Droell:

With all respect to Ariel, how about something wicked?

The five WORST PERFORMED pieces or movements. Fragments of Beethoven's genius that performers, for whatever reasons, have just not figured out. Here's mine:

9th symphony, first movement
5th symphony, finale
8th symphony, last two movements
3rd piano concerto, first movement

Without citing Wellington's Victory or the Choral Fantasia, it seems I can only think of four.

This is quite an insult to intelligence. The very best part of the 9th Symphony just happens to be the first movement, which in its passionate fury invokes nothing less than the opening verses of the Bible...

And I decidedly disagree, for many reasons which others have expressed, with Droell's other choices.



------------------
Must it be? It must be!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Ateach Asc:
This is quite an insult to intelligence. The very best part of the 9th Symphony just happens to be the first movement, which in its passionate fury invokes nothing less than the opening verses of the Bible...

And I decidedly disagree, for many reasons which others have expressed, with Droell's other choices.

I think you have misunderstood Droell's post - he is referring to performances not the works themselves. However I would like to know which performances Droell considers dreadful of the 9th first movt as there are so many different versions available.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Phillip_Davis]

1. String quartet in F minor Op.95 especially 1st and 3rd movements
2. Piano sonata "appassionata"
3. Piano concerto no.3 especially Rondo
4. Symphony no.4 first movement
5. Piano trio in C minor Op.1 no.2

always changes though. My preferred Beethoven tends to be what is blasting out of my cd player at the time. There does seem to be a bias towards F minor and C minor though

[Rod]

Originally posted by Droell:

With all respect to Ariel, how about something wicked?

The five WORST PERFORMED pieces or movements. Fragments of Beethoven's genius that performers, for whatever reasons, have just not figured out. Here's mine:

From my experience the worst PERFORMED are consistently:

6th Symphony - they play the whole piece at Largo

Egmont overture - see above

Violin Concerto - see above

Too many other Beethoven pieces to mention - see above...



------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Droell]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think you have misunderstood Droell's post - he is referring to performances not the works themselves. However I would like to know which performances Droell considers dreadful of the 9th first movt as there are so many different versions available.

Hello Peter,
I must confess that a lot of the performances of the 9th that I've heard - and that I've collected over the years - have been "nice" with regards to all the usual criteria. The ability of a skilled conductor & a well-trained orchestra to turn this music into something that can be enjoyed is precisely the problem. If enjoyment is the right word. It's a fierce movement.

For me, the revelation (and you knew a revelation was coming) was the first time I heard the Furtwangler 1952 Bayreuth performance. It was a single disc Everest pressing, I heard it in 1972. What I heard sounded like a single microphone mono recording. The mike seemed to be directly over the drum. I am unschooled in music. I like the drum, I always want to hear more of it in Beethoven.

Nothing in my life prepared me for recapitulation in the first movement. There was a wall of drum & horns & no matter how hard the strings (which seemed positively weak) tried to state their theme, they fell to the ground powerless against the wall. Every time. It was like surf pounding against the rocks. I was stunned.

From that, I gradually took apart large chunks of the movement as a whole. The immediate prior passage, a pleasant little thing, reminds me of a beautiful summer day, ended by a whirlwind that takes us into the recapitulation. A lot of conductors take the passage more slowly because it sounds so sweet. But in my copy of the score, there is no retard at this point. Beethoven wants the passage to sound rushed. Which, at tempo, it does. This is the setup to the recap itself, it's hardly a minor matter!

Then I got to comparing the pp opening with the ff recapitulation & was struck how cleverly Beethoven, in the recap, filled in the holes he had deliberately left in the exposition. No other recapitualtion, in any other piece of his music, is quite so drastic in its planning.

If the movement as a whole were played as written, I think it would be hair-raising. But it's choppy & it's hard to get an overall grasp on it. Also, conductors want to make a good performace, give the audience what it expects & what will sound nice & go down well. And I don't blame them. There's a reason the 15th string quartet, the Grosse Fuge, the final movement of the Hammerklavier are rarely performed. The 9th shouldn't join them.

As for Furtwanger, the Everest disc was borrowed. A few years later I got a copy of the same performance on Seraphim, on two proper discs. It wasn't the same. The sound was mush. In its turn, it got lost in a move.



[This message has been edited by Droell (edited 08-01-2005).]

[Droell]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think you have misunderstood Droell's post - he is referring to performances not the works themselves. However I would like to know which performances Droell considers dreadful of the 9th first movt as there are so many different versions available.

Just for the fun of it, here's the problem with the third piano concerto:

Back in 1970, High Fidelity magazine here in the states did a comprehensive survey of all available recording of B's music, for the Beethoven Bicentennial. One month was symphonies, another was concerti, another was the quartets, etc. I was a kid stuck in small-town Kansas. It was then & still is today bleak for serious music. Wish I still had those issues, I could make a fortune on EBay.

In reviewing the 3rd piano concerto, the reviewer pointed out that the time signature in the first movement was a C with a line through it. Not common time, but alla breve: Two beats to the measure, the half note getting it. In other words, it should go at twice the tempo! About that time I got my first copies of Beethoven scores & that's what I found there.

At the half-speed it's always played, the 3rd is turgid quasi-Brahms (apologies to the Bearded One!) It's hard for me to do it, but I've reconceptualized the movement at the proper speed. It's positively Mozartean & makes a lot more sense. On the radio a year ago they played the mid-1960's Serkin / Bernstein performance, which is at (or near) the "proper" tempo. But when I got a copy & studied it, it seemed to me that a faster tempo must have been Serkin's idea. Bernstein notably lags.

PS: The last two movements of the 8th suffer because they're rehearsed. They are meant to be sight-read!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Droell:

Hello Peter,
I must confess that a lot of the performances of the 9th that I've heard - and that I've collected over the years - have been "nice" with regards to all the usual criteria. The ability of a skilled conductor & a well-trained orchestra to turn this music into something that can be enjoyed is precisely the problem. If enjoyment is the right word. It's a fierce movement.

For me, the revelation (and you knew a revelation was coming) was the first time I heard the Furtwangler 1952 Bayreuth performance. It was a single disc Everest pressing, I heard it in 1972. What I heard sounded like a single microphone mono recording. The mike seemed to be directly over the drum. I am unschooled in music. I like the drum, I always want to hear more of it in Beethoven.

Nothing in my life prepared me for recapitulation in the first movement. There was a wall of drum & horns & no matter how hard the strings (which seemed positively weak) tried to state their theme, they fell to the ground powerless against the wall. Every time. It was like surf pounding against the rocks. I was stunned.

From that, I gradually took apart large chunks of the movement as a whole. The immediate prior passage, a pleasant little thing, reminds me of a beautiful summer day, ended by a whirlwind that takes us into the recapitulation. A lot of conductors take the passage more slowly because it sounds so sweet. But in my copy of the score, there is no retard at this point. Beethoven wants the passage to sound rushed. Which, at tempo, it does. This is the setup to the recap itself, it's hardly a minor matter!

Then I got to comparing the pp opening with the ff recapitulation & was struck how cleverly Beethoven, in the recap, filled in the holes he had deliberately left in the exposition. No other recapitualtion, in any other piece of his music, is quite so drastic in its planning.

If the movement as a whole were played as written, I think it would be hair-raising. But it's choppy & it's hard to get an overall grasp on it. Also, conductors want to make a good performace, give the audience what it expects & what will sound nice & go down well. And I don't blame them. There's a reason the 15th string quartet, the Grosse Fuge, the final movement of the Hammerklavier are rarely performed. The 9th shouldn't join them.

As for Furtwanger, the Everest disc was borrowed. A few years later I got a copy of the same performance on Seraphim, on two proper discs. It wasn't the same. The sound was mush. In its turn, it got lost in a move.



[This message has been edited by Droell (edited 08-01-2005).]

Interesting - what about tempo though? When it comes to this there is a great deal of controversy regarding Beethoven's metronome markings. Eliot Gardner takes the 1st movt of the 9th at the literal speed and this is quite a shock to the system!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Droell:

In reviewing the 3rd piano concerto, the reviewer pointed out that the time signature in the first movement was a C with a line through it. Not common time, but alla breve: Two beats to the measure, the half note getting it. In other words, it should go at twice the tempo!

I've lost count of the number of times I have said a Beethoven piece was performed at half tempo, and I haven't even seen the scores!!


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Interesting - what about tempo though? When it comes to this there is a great deal of controversy regarding Beethoven's metronome markings. Eliot Gardner takes the 1st movt of the 9th at the literal speed and this is quite a shock to the system!

There's nothing controvertial about Gardiner's interpretation to my mind. The other period instrument recordings I have are much in the same veign. Pity he is so lame with some of the other symphonies.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-01-2005).]

[Ateach Asc]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think you have misunderstood Droell's post - he is referring to performances not the works themselves. However I would like to know which performances Droell considers dreadful of the 9th first movt as there are so many different versions available.

BLUSH... BLUSH... BLUSH... My most sincere apologies... indeed Peter you are right ... and I did miss the key word PERFORMANCE...

The idea of a bad performance of any of LVB's works is fraught with peril since much to my surprise what I've tended to dislike (don't get this or that version) has been masterfully adored by many.



------------------
Must it be? It must be!

[Droell]

Originally posted by Peter:
Interesting - what about tempo though? When it comes to this there is a great deal of controversy regarding Beethoven's metronome markings. Eliot Gardner takes the 1st movt of the 9th at the literal speed and this is quite a shock to the system!

Sometimes in B's music, it is a matter of overall tempo. But to me, speed is subordinate to a convincing performace. In each piece, there is something unique that Beethoven wants to say. Sometimes we can put that certain something into words (where the piece gets an informal title), but often we just quite can't. A good performace is half the job. The listener is the other. I've heard convincing performaces at a variety of tempos. And for a variety of reasons.

For example, the fault I have with performances of the finale of the 5th symphony is that it is played as if we had never heard it before. When in fact a lot of us could hum the baseline from first to last. How many of us have the same reaction as that, recorded by Berlioz, of Lesueur, who, upon hearing the 5th for the first time, said,

"Let me get out. I must have some air. It's amazing! Wonderful! I was so moved and disturbed that when I emerged from the box and attempted to put on my hat, I couldn't find my head..." (David Cairns translation, Granda Publishing, 1974, pg. 112)

How to find this in Beethoven's score? We've heard it so much we've stopped listening. Many years ago I heard a performance on the radio (I think from a commercial recording, but I've never been able to find it) where, starting with the recapitulation in the finale, the rest of the movement was treated as one giant accelerando. By the time the final prestissimo came along, the tempo was so fast the players could no longer play it & the music was, strictly speaking, a hopeless jumble. But I didn't care. I was having a "Lesueur moment". That's the power of a good Beethoven performance.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Droell:

Sometimes in B's music, it is a matter of overall tempo. But to me, speed is subordinate to a convincing performace. In each piece, there is something unique that Beethoven wants to say. Sometimes we can put that certain something into words (where the piece gets an informal title), but often we just quite can't. A good performace is half the job. The listener is the other. I've heard convincing performaces at a variety of tempos. And for a variety of reasons.

For example, the fault I have with performances of the finale of the 5th symphony is that it is played as if we had never heard it before. When in fact a lot of us could hum the baseline from first to last. How many of us have the same reaction as that, recorded by Berlioz, of Lesueur, who, upon hearing the 5th for the first time, said,

"Let me get out. I must have some air. It's amazing! Wonderful! I was so moved and disturbed that when I emerged from the box and attempted to put on my hat, I couldn't find my head..." (David Cairns translation, Granda Publishing, 1974, pg. 112)

How to find this in Beethoven's score? We've heard it so much we've stopped listening. Many years ago I heard a performance on the radio (I think from a commercial recording, but I've never been able to find it) where, starting with the recapitulation in the finale, the rest of the movement was treated as one giant accelerando. By the time the final prestissimo came along, the tempo was so fast the players could no longer play it & the music was, strictly speaking, a hopeless jumble. But I didn't care. I was having a "Lesueur moment". That's the power of a good Beethoven performance.

Well it is a very real problem - how to make works that are so well known sound fresh, new and convincing with each performance. Actually this tempo issue is part of the problem which I think the HIP movement has highlighted. There is no doubt that during the 19th and 20th centuries tempi slowed down from the late 18th century conception. For example, very often Beethoven qualifies his allegro markings with con Brio and from most of the recordings I've heard this is lacking. Klemperer's 1970s Beethoven 2nd (recently shown on BBC4) was so lacking in vitality that it sounded as though the orchestra were rehearsing at half speed!

Just the other day I was discussing some interpretation issues with some pianist friends of mine, and their advice was quite right - just play what Beethoven wrote!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-01-2005).]