Missa Solemnis

[Sir Bygber Brown]

Originally posted by Sam van den Berg:


(When I have problems falling asleep, I pop it onto my discman and it works every time ... except that I have to wake up at 3 in the morning to take off the earphones! Not because it's boring, but because it transcends the daily business of living and paying bills...)

[/B][/QUOTE]

I could never fall asleep to Beethoven - I think the texture of the music discourages it. I think this is a compliment to Beethoven - he ensured that no-one could ever sleep through him.

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I composed some variations on a theme of yours... funny little tune, but it yielded some good things.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sir Bygber Brown:
I could never fall asleep to Beethoven - I think the texture of the music discourages it. I think this is a compliment to Beethoven - he ensured that no-one could ever sleep through him.

Some interpretations I've heard positively encourage insomnia! However I agree that if Beethoven is performed as intended you'd have to be comatose to sleep through it!


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'Man know thyself'

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Sir Bygber Brown:
I could never fall asleep to Beethoven - I think the texture of the music discourages it. I think this is a compliment to Beethoven - he ensured that no-one could ever sleep through him.

That reminds me of Haydn, hammering the timpani to wake people in his symphonies.

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"Wer ein holdes weib errungen..."

[Sam van den Berg]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:
[B] Some interpretations I've heard positively encourage insomnia! However I agree that if Beethoven is performed as intended you'd have to be comatose to sleep through it!

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Sam replies: This is late at night, in bed, in the dark, when insomnia threatens; and it makes perfect sense in those circumstances to use such profound music to draw one down gently into the mystical depths of your inner self and, ultimately, into a restful sleep. His music is not only for the concert hall, or the drawing room -- it is for all seasons, and all occasions. What's with all this pedantry? Beethoven himself would, as the Germans say, have coughed on such prissiness!

I don't normally fall asleep in daytime when listening to good music -- but I did once try, desperately try, but alas unsucessfully, to fall asleep at a performance of Benjamin Brittain's Death in Venice in the Pretoria Opera House. Such agony I have seldom experienced!

Sam

[untamed_personality]

I believe the Missa Solemnis is the greatest work in all music. It just seems to transcend time, music and religion all at once. Maybe it's because he turned to the older, more reverential styles to augment the inward-searching direction he was taking. It's timeless in the way Bach is timeless, only with much more drama and passion.

The Credo is the heart and guts here. Has there ever been a more cathartic and life-affirming moment in music than the culmination of the great fugue 'et vitam venturi saeculi'? That colossal tutti just makes me glad I'm alive to experience such astonishment.

Thank you, Ludwig, for the Missa Solemnis. And thank you, God, for inspiring him.

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Seizing fate by the throat...

[Rod]

Originally posted by untamed_personality:
I believe the Missa Solemnis is the greatest work in all music.

Is it not unreasonable to assume that whatever work could be construed as Beethoven's greatest would be by default the greatest work in all music?

Is not the Diabelli variations the greatest piece of piano music of all?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sam van den Berg]

Originally posted by Rod:
Is it not unreasonable to assume that whatever work could be construed as Beethoven's greatest would be by default the greatest work in all music?

Is not the Diabelli variations the greatest piece of piano music of all?

I have always loved the Diabelli variations, but "greatest" .... I don't know. I have come across a piano setting for the Eroica, which is quite stunning!

Sam

[Michael]

Originally posted by Rod:

Is not the Diabelli variations the greatest piece of piano music of all?

Whatever about that, I find the "Diabelli Variations" the single most difficult work by Beethoven. It is extremely hard to follow the different facets of the main theme as B explores them. In fact, the most helpful bit of advice I came across regarding this work (and I forget who suggested it) was to forget about the variations and listen to the 33 movements as a set of bagatelles that have some elements in common.
Even Alfred Brendel has had to make use of extra-musical images when playing the piece.
For example, the first variation he calls:
"Gladiator flexing muscles"
Variation 2: "Snowflakes"
Variation 3: "Confidence and Nagging Doubt"
Variation 4: "Learned Landler"
and so on - one for each of the 33 variations!

Other choice descriptions are -
Variation 15: "Cheerful Spook"
Variation 21: "Maniac and Moaner"
Variation 28: "The Rage of the Jumping Jack"

If Brendel needs help like that, there's some hope for me.

Michael

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sam van den Berg:
I have always loved the Diabelli variations, but "greatest" .... I don't know. I have come across a piano setting for the Eroica, which is quite stunning!

Sam

Are you saying this arrangement (by whom?) of the Eroica is a superior effort to the Variations?


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-25-2005).]

[Sam van den Berg]

Originally posted by Rod:
Are you saying this arrangement (by whom?) of the Eroica is a superior effort to the Variations?

No, NO, Not at all! Merely mentioned it as an interesting piece of music.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sam van den Berg:
No, NO, Not at all! Merely mentioned it as an interesting piece of music.

I actually thought you were referring to the Eroica variations rather than an arrangement of the symphony.

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'Man know thyself'

[waldstein]

by the way what was beethoven? a cotholic or a protestant?

[Peter]

Originally posted by waldstein:
by the way what was beethoven? a cotholic or a protestant?

He was catholic, though there is no record of regular church attendance and his whole creed seems to be more that of the Deists. He found God in nature, on walks in the woods and countryside.

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'Man know thyself'

[Hollywood]

At this very moment on 3SAT (Austrian TV channel) there is a performance of the "Missa Solemnis" that was recorded yesterday 29 July at the cathedral in Köln, Germany with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and the London Philharmonic Choir, conducted by Sir Gilbert Levine. This is a pre-event to the upcoming 20th World Youth Day that will be held in Köln from 16 to 21 August. So I guess that is why this TV presentation was preceeded with a greeting and message from the Pope.

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"God knows why it is that my pianoforte music always makes the worst impression on me, especially when it is played badly."
- Beethoven 1804.

[This message has been edited by Hollywood (edited 07-30-2005).]