Missa Solemnis

[Sam van den Berg]

An interesting reason suggested for why the Solemnis has not been (much, if ever) performed in South Africa, in spite of good orchestras, instrumentalists and soloists:

" ... I think that the men's voices in the Beethoven are very high with the result that non-professional choirs have difficulty singing them. As most South African choirs (in fact almost all SA choirs) fall into that category, it is not often performed here."

This is precisely why I should like to see the Solemnis introduced down here -- bit by bit if necessary. There are numerous potentially excellent black choirs, but they have been trained in run-of-the-mill church music and been heavily influenced by the ever-popular Messiah (nice bits, but essentially a superficial work and not a good basis to built a professional choral tradition on). Once some of these choirs rise to up the challenge of something like the Solemnis, it is likely to have a generally beneficial effect on the development of choral singing down here.

Sam

[lvbfanatic]

The last nine minutes (approximately) of the Missa are among some of the most sublime and yet most powerful emotive musical expressions.

These musical moments deal with the liturgical passage Dona Nobis Pacem.

It is at that point that one realizes that the Missa, after going through massively tempestuous passages of unparalled and unbridled power, ultimately bows out with an earthly preview of heaven's choir.

[Joy]

Indeed a great work! In spite of Beethoven's troubles with his nephew at the time he set to work in 1818. I believe it took over three years to complete the Mass finishing in 1822. The handwritten copy of the work given to the Archbishop in 1823 began with the following "Once again sacrifice all trifles of social life to your art, and God above all." To Cherubini he wrote, "I have just completed a solemn Mass and called it my biggest and most perfect achievement."

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Sam van den Berg]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joy:

"In spite of Beethoven's troubles with his nephew at the time ..."

To be fair, I think it was the poor nephew who suffered these troubles!!! Beethoven was so desperate for a musical heir, and the nephew simply had no talent! (Like me -- in primary school I auditioned for the hind-quarters of a papier-mache cow in some silly scool operetta ... and was turned down! Nevertheless, even as a musical moron (not worth a cow's ****), I love the Solemnis with passion. I agree that the Dona Nobis Pacem is exquisite -- and so much music for our time! -- but there are so many transcendental moments ... For me, there are two works that still stand as beacons between humanity at its best, and the rising tide of post-modernist, profit-driven, Philistinism: The Missa Solemnis in music, and Hamlet in theatre.

Sam

[Joy]

[quote]Originally posted by Sam van den Berg:

Originally posted by Joy:

"In spite of Beethoven's troubles with his nephew at the time ..."

To be fair, I think it was the poor nephew who suffered these troubles!!! Beethoven was so desperate for a musical heir, and the nephew simply had no talent! (Like me -- in primary school I auditioned for the hind-quarters of a papier-mache cow in some silly scool operetta ... and was turned down! Nevertheless, even as a musical moron (not worth a cow's ****), I love the Solemnis with passion. I agree that the Dona Nobis Pacem is exquisite -- and so much music for our time! -- but there are so many transcendental moments ... For me, there are two works that still stand as beacons between humanity at its best, and the rising tide of post-modernist, profit-driven, Philistinism: The Missa Solemnis in music, and Hamlet in theatre.

Sam

You're right about his nephew suffering these troubles as well. I should have put (vice versa) after "In spite of Beethoven's troubles with his nephew at the time ..."



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Johan]

How lovely and true you all write about this truely transcendental and incredibly giving work! For me there doesn't exist anything nearly so great in orchestral + choral terms.
Live I have heard it only once (in Helsinki)and - sorry to say - a quite poor performance.

[Hietzing56]

Originally posted by Johan:
How lovely and true you all write about this truely transcendental and incredibly giving work! For me there doesn't exist anything nearly so great in orchestral + choral terms.
Live I have heard it only once (in Helsinki)and - sorry to say - a quite poor performance.

For the longest time, I was worried about how I would react to hearing the Missa for the first time. It's reputation is SO intimidating. Wilhelm Furtwangler performed it only once and claimed there was no way to EVER do it justice. But I found it to be a wonderful, thrilling, touching, amazing and enjoyable work. I think it's reputation as a forbidding and difficult work is something that is unjustified, something we should "get over" once and for all. Just because we are raised to be think it's unfathomably profound music doesn't mean it actually IS. If a listener - or even a conductor - approaches a work with the attitude that the piece is a difficult colossus, that's pretty much what they're going to find. LvB's late quartets had the same reputation until about the time George Bernard Shaw described them as enjoyable, direct, and perfectly listenable - or words to that effect. People used to think Mahler's music was depressing and gloomy; it is, but only if you're listening to the first movements from (most of) the symphonies and skipping over the happy ending most of them have. I can listen to some works over and over, all day long - the Missa Solemnis is one of them.

[Hietzing56]

Originally posted by Hietzing56:

I also have to agree VERY emphatically with an earlier comment by Rod regarding the slow, portentous approach taken by many conductors. Sometimes "slow" means deep and immense; most of the time, it just means "attempting to be profound but really just making things drag on." This may seem like a philistine way of jumping to a conclusion, but a Missa that "weighs in" at nearly an hour an a half is going to be dull, dull, dull - no matter how loud it gets or who is performing. An 80-minute Missa is not rushed (Klemperer could do it, and he wasn't exactly a "authentic" tempo fanatic) so if I see a Missa on a single CD I'd go for it more eagerly than one that spills onto a second disc.

Somewhere in the past few years I read a comment stating that, in composing the Missa Solemnis, Beethoven was attempting to create nothing less than a musical portrait of God; that's the sort statement that stays with a person for a long time . . .it works for me, anyway.

[Sam van den Berg]

"Wilhelm Furtwangler performed it only once and claimed there was no way to EVER do it justice."

Well, of course, HE couldn't. What would a blood old Nazi, know of the Sublime? If I remember correctly -- Furtwangler conducted qite happily for Hitler, Goering and their gruesome frieneds.... When Beethoven ripped the Dedication to Napoleon from the Eroica, he was making a very important statement -- and I rather doubt that he would have approved of Hitler's coterie of loyal arists staying behidn to entertain him and his friends.

Or am I wronging Furtwangler?

Sam

[Sam van den Berg]

"Somewhere in the past few years I read a comment stating that, in composing the Missa Solemnis, Beethoven was attempting to create nothing less than a musical portrait of God; that's the sort statement that stays with a person for a long time . . .it works for me, anyway.[/B][/QUOTE]"

But a musical portrait of God at Beethoven's ridiculius metronome settings? (the music of the isolated mind runs at a different speed from music in real space). Surely not? It makes the choral movement of the Ninth sound like a rather clever version of Jingle Bells!

There is an excellent recording on one CD I can recommend: on original instruments with real honest-to-God gut strings!!!! It is the ARCHIV Produktion; now Deutsche Grammophon Gesellshaft DGG catalogue number 429 779-2 (recorded in 1990; conductor: John Eliot Gardiner; The Monteverdi Choir, Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique, ....

Sam



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[Hietzing56]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sam van den Berg:
[B]"Wilhelm Furtwangler performed it only once and claimed there was no way to EVER do it justice."

Well, of course, HE couldn't. What would a blood old Nazi, know of the Sublime? If I remember correctly -- Furtwangler conducted quite happily for Hitler, Goering and their gruesome frieneds.... When Beethoven ripped the Dedication to Napoleon from the Eroica, he was making a very important statement -- and I rather doubt that he would have approved of Hitler's coterie of loyal arists staying behidn to entertain him and his friends.

Or am I wronging Furtwangler?

Yes, but I also grew up thinking of him as your basic Nazi conductor. I mean, he stayed in Germany when everyone left, right? But, among others, Arnold Schoenberg urged him stay and use his influence to help out people, which he did. Still, sticking around just plain looked bad, even if he managed to get people out of the country by signing documents allowing them to leave. He certainly wasn't anti-Semitic; his secretary, Berta Geissmar, was Jewish. When the Nazis made strong noises about arresting her - they found it particulary offensive that in order to talk to WF you had to go through her - Furtwangler reluctantly made arrangements to get her to England. She wound up as secretary to Thomas Beecham, so I assume WF could write one heck of a reference letter. People tend to confuse Furtwangler with Karajan or other conductors who DID "appreciate" the Nazis; Karajan joined the party with no qualms, conducted in occupied countries, took full advantage of the orchestras that no longer had their conductors - or Jewish players - and didn't mind conducting in occupied Paris for Nazis and never apoligised for any of this. Furtwangler never "followed the tanks," or joined the party, did everything he could to avoid conducting at Nazi events - he had a physician who was always writing out notes saying that WF's tendonitis was acting up - kept his concert master even though the violinist's wife was Jewish, meaning the player should have been replaced. WF was surprised that he had to go through de-Nazification since, as he and others who were "there" saw it, he'd stayed behind and helped people left and right. But, let's face it, if you're the conductor of the berlin Philharmonic and Hitler's favourite conductor you've got a LOT of explaining to do. So he was put on trial and nothing really came of it. So he was put on trial again. Basically, he was guilty of being at the scene of a 12-year crime - but when the crime scene includes millions of bodies, well, see above comment regarding having a lot of explaining to do. It's a complicated story; for every incident of WF doing the right thing, there is a photo of him with a swastika banner in the background (of course, back then avoiding swastikas was about as likely as trying a photograph a soccer game without showing grass). You can talk about this forever and never realy "settle" anything. If he'd left - and he had offers - a lot of people would've died because he wasn't there to pull strings. His reputation would've been intact, but he would've let people die. I don't think "the Nazi thing" will ever fade away, but when I think of other conductors who can be seen in photos wearing armbands after nonchalantly tossing out their Jewish collegues, I can only think that at least Furtwangler did what he could. I should also mention that I am currently working on a documentary about him and have gone over this stuff relentlesly, enough to know that the film "Taking Sides" is more symbolic than factual; it's about as fair to Furtwangler as "Amadeus" was to Salieri.

[Hietzing56]

Originally posted by Sam van den Berg:
"Somewhere in the past few years I read a comment stating that, in composing the Missa Solemnis, Beethoven was attempting to create nothing less than a musical portrait of God; that's the sort statement that stays with a person for a long time . . .it works for me, anyway.

"

But a musical portrait of God at Beethoven's ridiculius metronome settings? (the music of the isolated mind runs at a different speed from music in real space). Surely not? It makes the choral movement of the Ninth sound like a rather clever version of Jingle Bells!

There is an excellent recording on one CD I can recommend: on original instruments with real honest-to-God gut strings!!!! It is the ARCHIV Produktion; now Deutsche Grammophon Gesellshaft DGG catalogue number 429 779-2 (recorded in 1990; conductor: John Eliot Gardiner; The Monteverdi Choir, Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique, ....

Sam

Beethoven and his metronome markings. Sigh! I've actually listened to ALL the symphonies played following his markings and felt sorry for myself. It was like speed reading. It felt really Italian and I don't mean in a good way. It was interesting but, again, I don't mean in a good way! The Missa can be "done" in less than two CDs and not sound rushed - this was all I meant and I'll see if I can hunt down the Gardiner performance you mention. Even if he's a 2-CD man with this work, the sound will be worth the trip.

[/B][/QUOTE]

[Sam van den Berg]

I have indeed wronged Furtwangler -- and apologise! Thanks for the background and setting me right! (I have some Furtwangler recordings, so now I can listen to them again! (But I still absolutely refuse to drive a Volkswagen!) I also now remember that I have a much treasured CD recording of Hans Hotter singing Winterreise in Berlin in 1941/42 ... and I'm certainly not going to destroy this marvelous recording!

In any case I spent my whole life under apartheid in South Africa, and though I did what I could to oposse it, I never left ... So I was being a bit of a hypocrite, eh? Mea culpa! Sorry, Furtwangler!

But now:

"Karajan joined the party with no qualms, conducted in occupied countries, took full advantage of the orchestras that no longer had their conductors - or Jewish players - and didn't mind conducting in occupied Paris for Nazis and never apoligised for any of this."

Oh my prophetic soul! I always knew there was something about bloody Klemperer that I disliked, but could never quite put my finger on it. Now I know!

Thanks for setting me right

Sam

[Hietzing56]

Originally posted by Sam van den Berg:

I have indeed wronged Furtwangler -- and apologise! Thanks for the background and setting me right! (I have some Furtwangler recordings, so now I can listen to them again! (But I still absolutely refuse to drive a Volkswagen!) I also now remember that I have a much treasured CD recording of Hans Hotter singing Winterreise in Berlin in 1941/42 ... and I'm certainly not going to destroy this marvelous recording!

In any case I spent my whole life under apartheid in South Africa, and though I did what I could to oposse it, I never left ... So I was being a bit of a hypocrite, eh? Mea culpa! Sorry, Furtwangler!

But now:

"Karajan joined the party with no qualms, conducted in occupied countries, took full advantage of the orchestras that no longer had their conductors - or Jewish players - and didn't mind conducting in occupied Paris for Nazis and never apoligised for any of this."

Oh my prophetic soul! I always knew there was something about bloody Klemperer that I disliked, but could never quite put my finger on it. Now I know!

Thanks for setting me right

Sam

I don't want to turn this into a discussion of European history ca, 1933-1945; those things go on forever and everyone winds up with their feelings hurt! As to Karajan, I can still listen to his recordings without getting queasy, but I was born in 1956 - anyone from an earlier generation would be understandably more ambivalent about him. I think the Nazis greatest "legacy" is how they ruined most of the 20th century. Again, I do not want to turn this into a political forum for the above reasons. It's tempting, but I only wind up saying what I already think and so does everyone else. I'd rather talk about Beethoven's hair or his awful penmanship!

[MusicallyInclined]

"...although I find it difficult to talk about myself, yet I must say that I consider this to be my greatest work. The would be 1000 gulden A.C. ..."

He was shrewd.