Mehul

[Chaszz]

Today on the Classical channel on my cable TV service I heard Symphony No. 1 by Etienne Méhul, who was roughly contemporary with Beethoven. Not bad. Beethoven must have known his works, but since he started as a revolutionary and then cooperated with the Napoleonic emporerate, probably despised him politically. Has anyone seen a reference to Beethoven mentioning him?

Méhul was for awhile Inspector of Music, probably under the Terror. Perhaps we need such an office today. Any volunteers?

[Joy]

I did find out that Mehul's 3 symphonies all composed in the early 19th century have some comparisons with Beethoven's 1st and 2nd symphony and even his 5th. Also I read that Beethoven's trumpet-calls in Fidelio were indebted to Méhul. Didn't see any mention of what Beethoven might have thought of him though.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Joy:
I did find out that Mehul's 3 symphonies all composed in the early 19th century have some comparisons with Beethoven's 1st and 2nd symphony and even his 5th. Also I read that Beethoven's trumpet-calls in Fidelio were indebted to Méhul.

The 1st Mehul symphony premiered in 1808, and the 2nd Mehul symphony premiered in 1809. Beethoven used "the redemption trumpet" calls in both the 1805 and the 1806 versions of "Leonore.* So, Mehul should be indebted to Beethoven!

This brings up an interesting question: How much did Beethoven's contemporaries hear Beethoven's music? I know from my research of Swedish composers that Beethoven's 1st and 2nd symphonies (which premiered in 1800 and 1803 respectively) were performed in Stockholm only in 1808. "Eroica" (which premiered in 1805) was first performed in Sweden in 1817. The Oslo premiere of Beethoven's 9th took place in 1871!

Then, of course, the reverse question is even more interesting: How much contemporary music of other composers did Beethoven hear?


All the best,
Hofrat

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
The 1st Mehul symphony premiered in 1808, and the 2nd Mehul symphony premiered in 1809. Beethoven used "the redemption trumpet" calls in both the 1805 and the 1806 versions of "Leonore.* So, Mehul should be indebted to Beethoven!

This brings up an interesting question: How much did Beethoven's contemporaries hear Beethoven's music? I know from my research of Swedish composers that Beethoven's 1st and 2nd symphonies (which premiered in 1800 and 1803 respectively) were performed in Stockholm only in 1808. "Eroica" (which premiered in 1805) was first performed in Sweden in 1817. The Oslo premiere of Beethoven's 9th took place in 1871!

Then, of course, the reverse question is even more interesting: How much contemporary music of other composers did Beethoven hear?


All the best,
Hofrat

It is an interesting point. Certainly in Paris the symphonies were slow to be performed and even in Vienna the Violin Concerto had to wait decades for a 2nd performance. As for Beethoven and other composers, well he must have been exposed to a great deal whilst at Bonn. One example is Justin Knecht (1752-1817) who had written a symphony titled 'The musical portrait of nature' which has a five movement plan with a first movement describing a beautiful sunlit countryside, a storm in the 3rd movement and the finale titled 'Nature raises her voice towards heaven offering to the creator sweet and agreeable songs.' Now it is certain that B knew of this work, even if he never heard it performed - Sir George Grove discovered that this symphony by Knecht was actually advertised on the cover of Beethoven's early 'Electoral' sonatas WoO47.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 07-24-2005).]

[Michael]

Originally posted by Peter:
One example is Justin Knecht (1752-1817) who had written a symphony titled 'The musical portrait of nature' which has a five movement plan with a first movement describing a beautiful sunlit countryside, a storm in the 3rd movement and the finale titled 'Nature raises her voice towards heaven offering to the creator sweet and agreeable songs.' Now it is certain that B knew of this work, even if he never heard it performed - Sir George Grove discovered that this symphony by Knecht was actually advertised on the cover of Beethoven's early 'Electoral' sonatas WoO47.

I remember actually hearing some of this Knecht symphony about eight years ago, in a television programme hosted by John Eliot Gardiner. The last movement had some similarities with the Pastoral - the themes were different but the "yodelling" type intro was there.
Also they played a pizzicato styled movement by another composer - he may have been French - and Gardiner was quite convincing in his theory that Beethoven might have pinched ideas from this for the third movement of the Fifth Symphony.

Michael

[King Stephen]

Etienne-Nicolas Mehul 1763-1817
First off, Etienne in english is also my Christian name, Stephen. Now with that out of the way let me begin by quoting the liner notes from the discs of Mehul's four mature symphonies, I say mature symphonies because he had a symphony in C major performed in 1797 but did note publish it.(The surviving partial score looks Haydn-influenced) The symphonies Nos. 3 and 4 were lost until the writer of the liner notes, David Charlton discovered them in 1979. These two symphonies along with Nos.1 and 2 were composed between 1808 and 1810. Each quite different from one another. The symphonies were composed by Mehul with full knowledge of the symphonies of Mozart, Haydn and the first two of Beethoven. Each of the four symphonies went through revision, and he only published the first two, seemingly withholding No.3 after first intending to issue it in 1809. In regard to No. 4 the 1810 performance had different third and fourth movements to those he finally composed and which are the ones used today. A first movement of a fifth symphony was all that Mehul composed before tuberculosis took its toll.
Overtures of Mehul are also worth a listen and two that I found to be of interest are the Overture, La Chasse du Jeune Henri (1797) and the Overture, Le Tresor Suppose (1802). People who like the classical period would find the music of Mehul very satisfing, as Beethoven did. "He is neither a Mozart nor a Haydn, but has qualities exclusively his own"
(Journal de l'empire 20 March 1810)

[Chaszz]

A few days ago I heard on the radio the overture to the opera Mélidore et Phrosine by Mehul. According to the announcer on WMNR.org, a classical FM and Internet station in Connecticut which sometimes features neglected composers, the opera was written in 1796. Wikipedia gives the date for the premiere as 1794. The remarkable thing was, tuning in in the middle of the piece, I thought I was hearing a previously unknown-to-me orchestral work by Beethoven; and not early Beethoven, but heroic-period Beethoven, that is, post-1800. It had much of the same orchestration, melodic strength, forward impetus, powerful rhythm and suffering. More than that, it was the same style. Imagine my surprise when I found out it was not by Beethoven but by Mehul and dated from the 1790s.

Now my surprise is compounded by the fact that I once started this thread on Mehul and completely forgot about it until I came back to the site and did a search on the name.

Well, to get to the kernel of what I want to say, let me just preface it by saying that Beethoven is on record as having admired Mehul's works. I want to say, based on what I heard in that overture, that Beethoven took much of his mature style from Mehul. No less. I repeat, Beethoven took much of his mature style from Mehul. No stone-throwing, please. It is totally incredible to me that Beethoven's originality lies with Mehul instead, in large part. I am myself dumbfounded to hear another composer, in 1794 or 1796, when Beethoven had not yet composed his First Symphony, writing music that is in the style of Beethoven's Third or Fifth.

I looked on Amazon for an mp3 download of that overture but there is none. I would have to increase my income somewhat to rise to the level of a starving artist, so am not about to buy a CD set of the opera if there is one. Mehul is rarely found in libraries so I can't borrow one. I am not interested in his post-1800 symphonies which may be contemporaneous with Beethoven's but in this opera or other pre-1800 orchestrated works which demonstrate this unmistakable style. Maybe some members of this forum can procure this overture or opera or some other pertinent work of Mehul in the 1790s. However, the only definite way I know at this time to demonstrate my point is to get hold somehow of this overture.

It is probably an understatement to say that this is NOT the end of this matter.

[Preston]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEucqmRrNIs

There is a link to the Mehul overture you speak of.

I do hear similarities (particularly with the power of the piece), though I, cannot agree that it foreshadows Beethoven's late period. A little of the "overall feel" remind me of parts of the overture to The Egmont- which is in a similar style to the 5th symphony. While, it may sound similar and have somewhat similar theory, I would have to say Beethoven is in a whole different world of sound when it comes down to it. Though, that is only my opinion.

[Chaszz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEucqmRrNIs

There is a link to the Mehul overture you speak of.

I do hear similarities (particularly with the power of the piece), though I, cannot agree that it foreshadows Beethoven's late period. A little of the "overall feel" remind me of parts of the overture to The Egmont- which is in a similar style to the 5th symphony. While, it may sound similar and have somewhat similar theory, I would have to say Beethoven is in a whole different world of sound when it comes down to it. Though, that is only my opinion.

Thanks, Preston, for this link. I never thought of trying youtube. I listened to the work, and it reconfirmed my opinion. I also listened to the overture to Stratonice, which Wikipedia gives as having premiered in 1792. I am again struck by the similarity to middle-period (not late) Beethoven. Asking myself what the difference is between the sound of this and say, a particularly dramatic movement by Mozart, Haydn or Gluck, it is partly in the orchestration, which has a "bass-ier" sound I associate with Beethoven.

[Preston]

Thanks, Preston, for this link. I never thought of trying youtube. I listened to the work, and it reconfirmed my opinion. I also listened to the overture to Stratonice, which Wikipedia gives as having premiered in 1792. I am again struck by the similarity to middle-period (not late) Beethoven. Asking myself what the difference is between the sound of this and say, a particularly dramatic movement by Mozart, Haydn or Gluck, it is partly in the orchestration, which has a "bass-ier" sound I associate with Beethoven.

Always, check YT, they have a ton of music, .

The opening chords of the Mehul overture, also, sounds to me like the opening of Don Giovanni, kind of. Do you hear the similarity between the Mehul and the DG overture? Though, it does have a more weighted sound to it. It really reminds more of the Egmont overture, in ways. Though, I know it is completely different at the same time, because with as great of musicians as the masters each note, phrase, passage, instrument, etc. is there for some reason.

I read on Wikipedia that Mehul was the first musician to be called a Romantic.

[Hofrat]

ASV put out a CD of "almost" 9 of Mehul's overtures. By "almost" 9 I mean that they intended to record 9 overtures but they recorded one overture twice. The missing overture is "Melidore et Phrosine." In the CD notes, they write about it but sadly some one errored terriibly and the overture was no put on the CD. Do not bother to look up ASV on the web. They were bought out and closed down. So, the CD is only available by stores that carry it in their inventory or second hand from the Internet.

[Roehre]

ASV put out a CD of "almost" 9 of Mehul's overtures. By "almost" 9 I mean that they intended to record 9 overtures but they recorded one overture twice. The missing overture is "Melidore et Phrosine." In the CD notes, they write about it but sadly some one errored terriibly and the overture was no put on the CD.

Indeed that's a pity. I've got that CD as well.
Maybe, as a couple of ASV recordings have now been released on Brilliant (the Martucci orchestral works one example), one day we'll be surprised by a CD with all the nine promised Méhul overtures