about schindler

[waldstein]

how did schindler met beethoven?i think he was a loyer . was he the one who defended beethoven for the costudy of karl?

[Droell]

Originally posted by waldstein:
how did schindler met beethoven?i think he was a loyer . was he the one who defended beethoven for the costudy of karl?

The answer to Waldstein's question may be found in any standard reference. Schindler was born in 1795 & first met Beethoven in 1814, when he would have been 19, an impressionable age.

I get the impression that Schindler was like a lot of people who post to this board: A fan. And like many fans, given the chance, he wanted to warp Beethoven to his own fantasy. Those who know more about Schindler than I do may tell us if he was not essentially a stalker.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Droell:

The answer to Waldstein's question may be found in any standard reference. Schindler was born in 1795 & first met Beethoven in 1814, when he would have been 19, an impressionable age.

I get the impression that Schindler was like a lot of people who post to this board: A fan. And like many fans, given the chance, he wanted to warp Beethoven to his own fantasy. Those who know more about Schindler than I do may tell us if he was not essentially a stalker.

Schindler's proper acquaintance with Beethoven dates from later in the 1820s (Schindler liked to give the impression of a longer period, and 1814 was no more than a brief meeting) - in actual fact he was probably in close contact with Beethoven for around 2 years only (when the rupture in their relationship after the 9th premier is taken into account). The entries in the conversation books before 1822 have been identified as having been forged by Schindler.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 07-25-2005).]

[Droell]

Originally posted by Peter:
Schindler's proper acquaintance with Beethoven dates from later in the 1820s (Schindler liked to give the impression of a longer period, and 1814 was no more than a brief meeting) - in actual fact he was probably in close contact with Beethoven for around 2 years only (when the rupture in their relationship after the 9th premier is taken into account). The entries in the conversation books before 1822 have been identified as having been forged by Schindler.

That's what I get for not checking closer. Thanks, Peter !

[Joy]

Anton Felix Schindler (1795-1864). Lots of different views of the man. Friend? Stalker?
Opportunist? We all have our own opinions for sure. He started off in a law career ended up a musician and Beethoven's private secretary (without salary). In a letter to Ries (1822) Beethoven wrote: "I have never on God's earth, met a bigger wretch." He took care of Beethoven's correspondence, rental apartments, hiring servants, etc. He was there til the end though. Strange relationship to say the least.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
He was there til the end though. Strange relationship to say the least.

Well he reappeared at the end! There is no doubt that Schindler had a high opinion of himself and tried to rewrite Beethoven history through misrepresentation and distortion. It is a pity that he did reappear as so much material came into his possession that otherwise may have been preserved by the Von Breuning family.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well he reappeared at the end! There is no doubt that Schindler had a high opinion of himself and tried to rewrite Beethoven history through misrepresentation and distortion. It is a pity that he did reappear as so much material came into his possession that otherwise may have been preserved by the Von Breuning family.

So you think he reappeared because he wanted to get his hands on, so to speak, Beethoven's conversation books so many of which he destroyed and not out of pure friendship? Could be. It is a shame indeed for posterity for sure.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[waldstein]

Originally posted by Joy:
Anton Felix Schindler (1795-1864). Lots of different views of the man. Friend? Stalker?
Opportunist? We all have our own opinions for sure. He started off in a law career ended up a musician and Beethoven's private secretary (without salary). In a letter to Ries (1822) Beethoven wrote: "I have never on God's earth, met a bigger wretch." He took care of Beethoven's correspondence, rental apartments, hiring servants, etc. He was there til the end though. Strange relationship to say the least.

so there wasn't anyone to warn beethoven about schindler bad intentions ? i mean czerny or the archiduke rodolph?

[Droell]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well he reappeared at the end! There is no doubt that Schindler had a high opinion of himself and tried to rewrite Beethoven history through misrepresentation and distortion. It is a pity that he did reappear as so much material came into his possession that otherwise may have been preserved by the Von Breuning family.

Peter, as long as we're here, can you name a really good biography of Ludwig?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Droell:

Peter, as long as we're here, can you name a really good biography of Ludwig?

Thayer's Life of Beethoven, Elliot Forbes (Editor). Princeton University Press. 1991. ISBN 0691027196 (paperback), 0691027021 (paperback)
The huge classic treatment of Beethoven's life and work, originally written by Alexander Wheelock Thayer. The convoluted story of how this work came to be completed is related in the preface.

Beethoven: His Life, Work and World, H.C. Robbins Landon, H. C. Robbins Landom. Thames & Hudson. 1993. ISBN 0500015406 (hardcover)

The Beethoven Compendium: A Guide to Beethoven's Life and Music, Barry Cooper (Editor), et al. Thames & Hudson. 1996. ISBN 0500278717 (paperback)

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
So you think he reappeared because he wanted to get his hands on, so to speak, Beethoven's conversation books so many of which he destroyed and not out of pure friendship? Could be. It is a shame indeed for posterity for sure.

I don't suppose that was his motive, after all he may not have realised the gravity of the situation. No, he used the illness and karl's departure for Iglau as an opportunity to get back in with Beethoven.


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'Man know thyself'

[Roehre]

how did schindler met beethoven?i think he was a lawyer ...

What we tend to forget about Schindler is, that he himself was a trained musician as well as a composer himself.

The latter is not an unimportant detail, as we do assume that the Canon Ta ta ta lieber Mälzel (WoO 162) was a forgery of his.
However, the Canon contains a harmonical trick which mustn't have caused Beethoven any trouble whatsoever to invent, but most likely was too complicated for the composer Schindler.

The Beethovenhaus possess one of the Schindler scores, a Mass in D major (sic!). Although this seems to be a "late Schindler", the music hardly surpasses the level of a apprentice composer, certainly not one able to "design" a canon like WoO 162.

That opens the discussions whether once such a beethovenian little work really existed, which Schindler really had in his possession one time, lost, and had to reconstruct from memory.
(But even then the Schindler story that the canon was the point of departure for that 8th symphony movement is proven to be incorrect by the sketches for the 8th).

Whatever he did, we must be thankful to Schindler anyway, as without him we most likely wouldn't have 137 konversationshefte concentrated and safe in one Berlin library, but scattered all around the world, as happened with the beethovenian sketchbooks.