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**Joy** · 07-20-2005, 04:19 AM

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by "smashing a girl's heart and soul" but for me I like learning about the composer's life as well as enjoying the music. It makes it much more interesting. I fell in love with Beethoven's music first without even knowing who he was and then I started learning about the man and I find Beethoven's life fascinating in many ways but especially how he overcame so many difficulties both emotional and physical and still made such beautiful music! It's an inspiration!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

**Nightklavier** · 07-20-2005, 04:41 AM

It's interesting, that some people *forget* that Beethoven was deaf. Or if they do acknowledge it, they don't realize just what that means to someone like him. It's hard to categorize myself into a group like you detailed. Of course, the music means more to me than Beethoven himself, but it's still necessary to distinguish Beethoven "the man" and Beethoven "the composer".

Imagine if Vermeer or Da Vinci was blind. A lot of people say Beethoven's music reflects his pain and suffering of his deafness. I can agree regarding some works, but it's possible to hear Beethoven and think him just as "normal" as a Mendelssohn or Schubert. Look at his early and mid piano sonata's. Some of the mid (No. 12-25) are cheerfully melodious, and I don't feel when I listen to them that the composer's deafness is even important, which just contributes to how much of a genius Beethoven was. It's not like I'm saying, "oh, this bar must indicate how much he grieved over his hearing loss". I'll admit there are movements that have dark and grievous melodies (Piano Sonata No. 3, No. 12 and 14, of course No. 21 and 23), but after Moonlight, listen to the "Pastorale". How do you go from the haunting adagio of Moonlight to the tranquil and almost jovial movements of the No. 15 sonata?

I don't think it's important to ruminate so much on Beethoven "the man" as it is for Beethoven "the composer." For those who saw "Immortal Beloved", I felt like saying, "enough with the custody battle over Karl, get me to the Op. 130 string quartet, show me the 'appassionata' sonata, where's the violin concerto in D?" Too many people want to dig and "find the secret" of Beethoven the man. I would much rather "find the secret" of the composer.

How did he, for instance, compose the 9th being completely deaf? Every movement is perfect and I would much rather know how he did that then how many temper tantrums he threw at Schindler or his house maid. But I'm sure what's found in those conversation books is fascinating and perhaps illustrates Beethoven a little more, but how does it help you with the music?

To this day, I want to know what Beethoven was thinking when he wrote the first movement of the Piano Sonata No. 14, the Romance for Violin and Orchestra, and the adagio movement of the Piano Concerto No. 5 (no other work in the entire collection of classical music comes close to sounding like this; where did this come from?)

So that's my *answer*, I guess. While no one is "right", I think it's only logical and productive, that if you're going to research Beethoven, look into what made him compose what he did. Obviously his deafness contributed to it. Obviously some women he loved affected his music. Experimentation was a part of it too. So what else?

**Opus131** · 07-20-2005, 06:48 AM

Let's not forget that Beethoven didn't merely suffer from gradual hear loss.

He was a lonely and aloof child and the son of a drunken, abusive failure of a man.

As an adult, not only he had to struggle with his constant bowl pains and ongoing hear loss, he also was very much alone throught his lifetime and his deafness only made him isolate more.

Such torments can make a dent on anybody's integrity let alone a man of Beethoven's temper...

[This message has been edited by Opus131 (edited 07-20-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Opus131 (edited 07-20-2005).]

**Opus131** · 07-20-2005, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by Nightklavier:

How did he, for instance, compose the 9th being completely deaf?

Composers can write music down without the need of a piano, the same way you write down words.

I think people over-state how much of an hundrance his deafness was...

**Droell** · 07-20-2005, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
......Too many people want to dig and "find the secret" of Beethoven the man. I would much rather "find the secret" of the composer.

How did he, for instance, compose the 9th being completely deaf? Every movement is perfect and I would much rather know how he did that then how many temper tantrums he threw at Schindler or his house maid. But I'm sure what's found in those conversation books is fascinating and perhaps illustrates Beethoven a little more, but how does it help you with the music?

To this day, I want to know what Beethoven was thinking when he wrote the first movement of the Piano Sonata No. 14, the Romance for Violin and Orchestra, and the adagio movement of the Piano Concerto No. 5 (no other work in the entire collection of classical music comes close to sounding like this; where did this come from?)

So that's my *answer*, I guess. While no one is "right", I think it's only logical and productive, that if you're going to research Beethoven, look into what made him compose what he did. Obviously his deafness contributed to it. Obviously some women he loved affected his music. Experimentation was a part of it too. So what else?

A interesting post. I have it that Beethoven was a storyteller who used music instead of words. Beethoven, like Mozart & all the other really great commposers, could get up in the morning & compose beautiful melodies all day, off the top of his head. You're looking at his sketchbooks & you say, how can that be, but remember his skills in improvisation. Great composers need more challenge than the first thought that comes to their head. They write not only in a unique style, but, additionally, from some specific concept.

The Mozart vs: Beethoven thread unearthed Mozart's: He's a composer's composer. All his i's dotted, all his t's crossed. If you write a four-part aria, Amadeus will write one in 6 or 7 - and for twice as long with stunning impact. I would guess that Mozart is more popular the more musically trained you are. Beethoven, by contrast, is more popular with the masses.

I am increasingly convinced that in multi-movement pieces, Beethoven sets out to describe three or four (depending on the number of movements) distinct "episodes" in whatever he is writing about. In effect, every middle period piece by Beethoven is a Pastoral symphony or a Les Adieux sonata. You want the secret in that amazing slow movement in the 5th concerto? Study all three movements for the key. (Regret that I don't have it, either.)

What is the key to a mature work of Beethoven? That's what Beethoven worked so hard on. That's the struggle you see, over & over again, in the sketchbooks. To find a convincingly musical key, and then to exploit it. This will be a long post, but I will give you some of the keys to the Eroica:

The first movement is not about Napoleon. It is about the society that Napoleon's altruism was going to make posssible. It is about ordinary citizens (Les Citoyens) at last becoming empowered. Beethoven uses everything at his command to hammer this home. So far as I can tell, the opening exposition describes an early "town hall" type of meeting: The short snatches of melody, the wildly varying orchestration. You can almost hear Citizen A make a proposal, Citizen B second it, the assembly pass or reject it. In the background, Napoleon presides.

Take this concept into the development section & it becomes clear that Beethoven is not merely playing with themes, he is instead playing with the characters he has introduced. If the exposition introduced "Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice," the deveopment shows us what they get up to. So, of course, "new" themes are introduced. There can be no other solution. Then the recapitulation, then the final working out in the coda, where, again, "new" themes are introduced.

I haven't worked out the Funeral March, other than to suspect it's not what we've thought all these years. A basic funeral march is a minor-major-minor thing. Beethoven starts like this, but then goes into various episodes. Why? It must fit with his overall scheme, whatever it was. The melodic key to the movement is not given in the first bars. Cunningly, Beethoven opens with a variation of the actual theme: Further on in the movement, you will hear it in the strings, over & over again: Boo-hoo-hoo. Crying. Listen closely to someone bursting into tears. They hold back as long as possible, and then the first big sob, followed by a forced pause, then smaller sobs in quick succession. What better motif for a Funeral March than the sound of sobbing? You hear it throughout the movement.

I agree with the general description of the scherzo: Napoleon at work, issuing commands & directives. But there's more. Napoleon's personal symbol was the bee. Go visit his museums in Paris, you will see bees everywhere. Beethoven's music describes a beehive, all abuzz.

The fourth movement is also clear: Beethoven writes a biographical sketch of Napoleon's life as a hero. What musical form is best suited for this? Theme & variations, of course. Where does Beethoven start? Not with the man, not with his birth, but with his ancestors. In other words, with the base-line, not the melody per se. Episodes of increasing heroism follow, ending with the hero's ultimate demise, and our sadness at his passing. But in true heroic fashion, heros never die, they are merely in hiding. When called, they burst forth into a renewed blaze of glory. The symphony ends with bombast, but very carefully written bombast. We hear Napoleon speak again, we see him striding forth, we even hear, in the clarinet arpeggio, that everyone will be included, no one will be left behind. The resulting symphony as a whole: Four movements in the life of a hero & how he would transform the world. The work was aptly named. Beethoven's rage upon hearing of Napoleon's coronation was more than justified.

Such is what Beethoven was up to in a symphony that is fairly clearly written. The violin concerto? Suppose you were to be awakened early some morning. What would a gentle rapping on your door sound like? Yes. Beethoven is this literal. And hugely skilled.

Given that we - or me, at any rate - has figured out what Mozart & Beethoven were really up to, it is a great loss that Mozart did not live. Imagine these two great men, playing off each other. Mozart becoming more literal, Beethoven discovering more finesse.

**Peter** · 07-20-2005, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Opus131:
Composers can write music down without the need of a piano, the same way you write down words.

I think people over-state how much of an hundrance his deafness was...

This is certainly true as far as composing goes - there is no great mystery surrounding this, many musicians are capable of 'hearing' a work by reading the score. Surely in this regard the blindness of Rodrigo and Delius were more of a handicap? However as a performing musician deafness is a more severe handicap, though in our own age we have Evelyn Glennie to show that even this can be overcome.

I think Beethoven's deafness affected his social life most of all.

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'Man know thyself'

**Peter** · 07-20-2005, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by ShalimaRana:
Hello people and lovers,
could you all give me a hint, how to deal with an artist like Beethoven. One group of people says: We only love his music - heck with the rest. - The other group of people says: the man and the music belong together.
Who is right?
I am reading his conversationbooks right now, for the 5th time in my life (you know those notebooks, that he had to carry with him because of his total deafness. He used them from 1818 till 1827, and can be read only today in printed version - in german.
Strong tobacco, a hammer on the anvil, and I ask myself, is it really necessary to look sooooo closely into his earthly life, to get him right? Maybe these books only kill me, because I cant talk about them. 20 years ago my father warned me to read those, he said, a literature like that could smash a girl's heart and soul, and all the hearts of those who love Beethoven. Back then, I didnt know what he was talking about. Only today I get the feeling he was be right.
You all see an overcharged fan.
Sincerely ShalimaRana

I think knowing about the composer's life is an enhancement to our understanding - I don't see that it hinders in any way. Obviously to appreciate the last quartets it isn't necessary to know how many coffee beans per cup he had! However we are fascinated by extraordinary people and I think it is natural if one has great admiration for something to want to know all there is about it.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

**Johan** · 07-20-2005, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Droell:
A interesting post. I have it that Beethoven was a storyteller who used music instead of words. Beethoven, like Mozart & all the other really great commposers, could get up in the morning & compose beautiful melodies all day, off the top of his head. You're looking at his sketchbooks & you say, how can that be, but remember his skills in improvisation. Great composers need more challenge than the first thought that comes to their head. They write not only in a unique style, but, additionally, from some specific concept.

The Mozart vs: Beethoven thread unearthed Mozart's: He's a composer's composer. All his i's dotted, all his t's crossed. If you write a four-part aria, Amadeus will write one in 6 or 7 - and for twice as long with stunning impact. I would guess that Mozart is more popular the more musically trained you are. Beethoven, by contrast, is more popular with the masses.

I am increasingly convinced that in multi-movement pieces, Beethoven sets out to describe three or four (depending on the number of movements) distinct "episodes" in whatever he is writing about. In effect, every middle period piece by Beethoven is a Pastoral symphony or a Les Adieux sonata. You want the secret in that amazing slow movement in the 5th concerto? Study all three movements for the key. (Regret that I don't have it, either.)

What is the key to a mature work of Beethoven? That's what Beethoven worked so hard on. That's the struggle you see, over & over again, in the sketchbooks. To find a convincingly musical key, and then to exploit it. This will be a long post, but I will give you some of the keys to the Eroica:

The first movement is not about Napoleon. It is about the society that Napoleon's altruism was going to make posssible. It is about ordinary citizens (Les Citoyens) at last becoming empowered. Beethoven uses everything at his command to hammer this home. So far as I can tell, the opening exposition describes an early "town hall" type of meeting: The short snatches of melody, the wildly varying orchestration. You can almost hear Citizen A make a proposal, Citizen B second it, the assembly pass or reject it. In the background, Napoleon presides.

Take this concept into the development section & it becomes clear that Beethoven is not merely playing with themes, he is instead playing with the characters he has introduced. If the exposition introduced "Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice," the deveopment shows us what they get up to. So, of course, "new" themes are introduced. There can be no other solution. Then the recapitulation, then the final working out in the coda, where, again, "new" themes are introduced.

I haven't worked out the Funeral March, other than to suspect it's not what we've thought all these years. A basic funeral march is a minor-major-minor thing. Beethoven starts like this, but then goes into various episodes. Why? It must fit with his overall scheme, whatever it was. The melodic key to the movement is not given in the first bars. Cunningly, Beethoven opens with a variation of the actual theme: Further on in the movement, you will hear it in the strings, over & over again: Boo-hoo-hoo. Crying. Listen closely to someone bursting into tears. They hold back as long as possible, and then the first big sob, followed by a forced pause, then smaller sobs in quick succession. What better motif for a Funeral March than the sound of sobbing? You hear it throughout the movement.

I agree with the general description of the scherzo: Napoleon at work, issuing commands & directives. But there's more. Napoleon's personal symbol was the bee. Go visit his museums in Paris, you will see bees everywhere. Beethoven's music describes a beehive, all abuzz.

The fourth movement is also clear: Beethoven writes a biographical sketch of Napoleon's life as a hero. What musical form is best suited for this? Theme & variations, of course. Where does Beethoven start? Not with the man, not with his birth, but with his ancestors. In other words, with the base-line, not the melody per se. Episodes of increasing heroism follow, ending with the hero's ultimate demise, and our sadness at his passing. But in true heroic fashion, heros never die, they are merely in hiding. When called, they burst forth into a renewed blaze of glory. The symphony ends with bombast, but very carefully written bombast. We hear Napoleon speak again, we see him striding forth, we even hear, in the clarinet arpeggio, that everyone will be included, no one will be left behind. The resulting symphony as a whole: Four movements in the life of a hero & how he would transform the world. The work was aptly named. Beethoven's rage upon hearing of Napoleon's coronation was more than justified.

Such is what Beethoven was up to in a symphony that is fairly clearly written. The violin concerto? Suppose you were to be awakened early some morning. What would a gentle rapping on your door sound like? Yes. Beethoven is this literal. And hugely skilled.

Given that we - or me, at any rate - has figured out what Mozart & Beethoven were really up to, it is a great loss that Mozart did not live. Imagine these two great men, playing off each other. Mozart becoming more literal, Beethoven discovering more finesse.

Beethoven - more popular with the masses (?) - than Mozart? And more musically-schooled like Mozart better than Beethoven?

**Sorrano** · 07-20-2005, 07:36 PM

I, myself, find it very difficult to separate the man from the music. I cannot listen to his music without being aware of what the man was like, his joys, sorrows, etc.

**Joy** · 07-20-2005, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
[B]

Look at his early and mid piano sonata's. Some of the mid (No. 12-25) are cheerfully melodious, and I don't feel when I listen to them that the composer's deafness is even important, which just contributes to how much of a genius Beethoven was. It's not like I'm saying, "oh, this bar must indicate how much he grieved over his hearing loss". I'll admit there are movements that have dark and grievous melodies (Piano Sonata No. 3, No. 12 and 14, of course No. 21 and 23), but after Moonlight, listen to the "Pastorale". How do you go from the haunting adagio of Moonlight to the tranquil and almost jovial movements of the No. 15 sonata?

This makes me think of his Symphony No. 2, Opus 36 (1801-1802) written in one of his most despairing of times. His deafness was getting worse and he had to deal with the inevitable possiblility that he would no longer be able to perform as a pianist or musician one day. His overall health problems were kicking in and yet at no place in the symphony does this cry of anguish disturb the confidence and contentment of this music.

------------------
'Truth and beauty joined'

**Droell** · 07-20-2005, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by Peter:
Obviously to appreciate the last quartets it isn't necessary to know how many coffee beans per cup he had!

Applies also to the Ghost Trio. Lots of 60-bean coffee in that one!

**Opus131** · 07-20-2005, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by Joy:
This makes me think of his Symphony No. 2, Opus 36 (1801-1802) written in one of his most despairing of times. His deafness was getting worse and he had to deal with the inevitable possiblility that he would no longer be able to perform as a pianist or musician one day. His overall health problems were kicking in and yet at no place in the symphony does this cry of anguish disturb the confidence and contentment of this music.

This is because, unlike popular beleif composers don't write music in reflection of themselves...

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