The 2005 Documentary "Beethoven's Hair"

[Uniqor]

Thanks Peter.

[somebody]

DOES ANYONE KNOW IF THIS DOCUMENTARY WILL BE SHOWN ON BRTISH TV?

Originally posted by Hollywood:
This morning on Austria's ORF 2 TV station I watched the U.S. documentary film "Beethoven's Hair" (2005). Here is some info on it but it is in german: http://tv.orf.at/program/orf2/200505...403001/213937/

I have not read the book but I would like to get a copy of it for my collection. I really enjoyed this film and found it interesting how they tried to follow the whereabouts of the lock of Beethoven's hair that Ferdinand Hiller cut from Beethoven's head the day after his death in 1827. To see what kind of pain and suffering that Beethoven went through in his adult life was so sad to watch and to wonder how he managed to endure it all without taking any pain medication. If only the people who knew him or met him back then could have had any idea of the pain he was suffering from, then maybe they all would have had more understanding and patience towards him. Beethoven was way stronger in spirit and body than anyone can imagine. But through such suffering did Beethoven produce such wonderful music.

[Peter]

Originally posted by somebody:
DOES ANYONE KNOW IF THIS DOCUMENTARY WILL BE SHOWN ON BRTISH TV?

Beethoven's Hair
Tue 23 June 11.20pm BBC TWO

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Droell]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Please do not put credence in the nicknames given to Beethoven's works. Most of them were not Beethoven's invention, including "tempest."


Hofrat

On the one hand, offhand I cannot recall B ever repudiated a title. On the other hand, of the pieces that B named himself, I am of the opinion they cannot be properly played unless you know the title. The opening passage of the third movement of op. 81a, Das Lebewohl, as an example.

[Droell]

Originally posted by Peter:


My own theory as to why Beethoven never married is because of a contradiction in his nature, wanting something whilst realising it couldn't work.

My own theory is that B was a country boy in a big city & lacked the proper introductions that would make a young lady - or her father - agree. Ries's experience in this matter may be enlightening. He seems to have little prospects in marriage (or perhaps, little interest) until he arrived in London in 1813. A year later, he weds a nice English girl. Had to have been a formal introduction behind it.

Romantic flings are another thing. Reading Ries, it seems B had a number of them.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Droell:
My own theory is that B was a country boy in a big city & lacked the proper introductions that would make a young lady - or her father - agree. Ries's experience in this matter may be enlightening. He seems to have little prospects in marriage (or perhaps, little interest) until he arrived in London in 1813. A year later, he weds a nice English girl. Had to have been a formal introduction behind it.

Romantic flings are another thing. Reading Ries, it seems B had a number of them.

I'm not convinced by that as Beethoven had plenty of introductions into society from the moment he settled in Vienna in 1792. And besides what introductions did he need, when by 1795 he was the most famous pianist in Vienna and by 1810 its most celebrated composer? No, I'm convinced there were reasons on a much deeper subconscious level that Beethoven in a pre-Freudian age may not have even been aware of himself.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Droell]

Originally posted by Peter:
I'm not convinced by that as Beethoven had plenty of introductions into society from the moment he settled in Vienna in 1792.

True, he had plenty of introductions. He would have gone nowhere professionally without them. But he was, and remained, a country fellow. He was crude & vulgar in polite society, refused to change & suffered the consequences. Can you seriously imagine Beethoven going, cap in hand, to the father of any of his loves & asking for her hand? Can you imagine any of his lovers eloping with him, in defiance of her family's wishes? Could he have found a wife in Bonn? Most likely. But not in Vienna. Note his opinion of his brothers's wives, who were presumably of the same class as himself.

[Droell]

Originally posted by Droell:
Can you imagine any of his lovers eloping with him, in defiance of her family's wishes?

On the other hand, a lot of women like the over the top, larger than life sort of guy that B was in his first years in Vienna. Their inability to consider him a serious suitor must have broken many hearts. Does anyone know of any of their memoirs?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Droell:
True, he had plenty of introductions. He would have gone nowhere professionally without them. But he was, and remained, a country fellow. He was crude & vulgar in polite society, refused to change & suffered the consequences. Can you seriously imagine Beethoven going, cap in hand, to the father of any of his loves & asking for her hand? Can you imagine any of his lovers eloping with him, in defiance of her family's wishes? Could he have found a wife in Bonn? Most likely. But not in Vienna. Note his opinion of his brothers's wives, who were presumably of the same class as himself.

I think you are right to point out the class issue (it raises the issue though as to why Beethoven always pursued unattainable women?) but this is not the reason why Beethoven was not accepted by perhaps his greatest love Josephine Von Brunsvik - we know this because her sister Therese wrote years later that it was Josephine's duty to her children that prevented her from accepting him.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Droell]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think you are right to point out the class issue (it raises the issue though as to why Beethoven always pursued unattainable women?) but this is not the reason why Beethoven was not accepted by perhaps his greatest love Josephine Von Brunsvik - we know this because her sister Therese wrote years later that it was Josephine's duty to her children that prevented her from accepting him.

Hello Peter,

Why B pursued unattainable women brings up more knotty problems. A few years back I heard that B, trying to justify the "von/van" in his name, thought that he must have been the child of royalty of some sort, and, presumably, not of his actual parents. He seems to have mentioned this to someone around 1815, if memory serves. At first I thought this an absurd story, but on reflection I'm not so sure.

He spent his entire adult life among the aristocracy & consistently acted as if they were his peers. Regardless of his actual status, sophisticated Viennese blue-bloods would have always seen him as rural, be he royal or not. Vienna is cruel that way.

This touches on nephew Karl. Beethoven thought his mother to be low class, which formed the basis of his Herculean efforts to get Karl away from her & make something of him. I am not of the opinion that Karl was secretly Ludwig's son, since if B wanted "low class" females, he could have had them by the dozen. They would have thought him an ideal catch & if he ever got within range, one or another would have snared him. As far as family secrets go, B was a master of musical subtlety, but not a master of social graces, as we all know. If Karl was really Ludwig's son, he would have simply said so. The Ludwig / Karl clash is well worth study & in my opinion, underlies the 9th symphony & perhaps his entire third period.

As for Josephine Von Brunsvik, reviewing comments I found on-line, it would appear that her marriage was the "sensible thing" for a woman in her position, given that she presumably had no interest in men of her own age & class. Once widowed, it shows how limited Beethoven's choices were. As a rule, eligible bachelors do not seriously pursue widows with children. For her part, the widowed Josephine probably had even better reason for rejecting Beethoven than she had for rejecting him as a single woman: It would have made her look desperate. Somewhere I read that if we take Beethoven as a commoner, marriage to him would have ended Josephine's aristocratic status. A single woman might gamble that. A mother with children will not. As for her vow of widowed chasity, she had little choice. Widowed/divorced mothers with boyfriends are, to this day, taken as little more than whores. (It's happened in my own family.)

Once we set Viennese society in motion, Beethoven's part in it becomes clear. Or clearer, perhaps. Again, this is speculation, I am just rambling.




[This message has been edited by Droell (edited 06-05-2005).]

[Jim Williams]

How much serious research has been done on Beethoven's deafness? It appears that he suffered symptoms very much like progressive nerve deafness where the hearing declines relentlessly over time. The onset could, in fact, have been very early in his life, but not severe enough then to be noticed.

An outgoing young man with adequate hearing is capable of being far more sociable than one who increasingly cannot follow a conversation. Introversion and frustration are natural outcomes of isolation. If the DNA research about his lead poisoning is correct, then deafness and debilitating health problems would easily make a relationship extremely difficult.

------------------
"In a world of fugitives, he who takes the opposite course will appear to run away." T. S. Eliot

[Peter]

Originally posted by Jim Williams:
How much serious research has been done on Beethoven's deafness? It appears that he suffered symptoms very much like progressive nerve deafness where the hearing declines relentlessly over time. The onset could, in fact, have been very early in his life, but not severe enough then to be noticed.

An outgoing young man with adequate hearing is capable of being far more sociable than one who increasingly cannot follow a conversation. Introversion and frustration are natural outcomes of isolation. If the DNA research about his lead poisoning is correct, then deafness and debilitating health problems would easily make a relationship extremely difficult.

Over the years there have been many studies not only into Beethoven's deafness but the many illnesses he suffered throughout life. The cause of Beethoven's deafness is generally thought to have been Otosclerosis - the abnormal growth of bone of the inner ear. Regarding the lead poisoning I'm not sure that they can determine whether this occurred over many years or a short time and therefore I would have thought it difficult to prove any links with his deafness.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Jim Williams]

Just to be clear, I wasn't citing the lead poisoning as a cause of his deafness, but as an additional difficulty he had to cope with. As I understand it, there were significant traces of lead in the locks of his hair that were analyzed. Beethoven's everyday eating utensils were thought to be the likely source. Interestingly, there was no trace of mercury, the standard treatment for syphilis, which many biographers through history have speculated that Beethoven had.