The power of the Allegretto from the 7th symphony

[Suflex]

Hi all,

First I'd like to commend the forum moderators and posters on the excellent standard maintained through out. Music lovers indeed.


I'm a 30 year old male Egyptian, been playing rock guitar for around 11 years now, and though we've always had Beethoven's music playing in our house throughout my younger years, I really did not try to dig deeper than the 5th symphony until recently. and my efforts were rewarded with the heavenly gift that is Beethoven's music.

The glory of the 3rd symphony, the tenderness of the Emperor concerto, the storm of the tempest sonata are all now etched firmly within my soul, but one piece that has literally haunted me since I first heard it was the 2nd movement from the 7th symphony... This is way beyond music, it is just so POWERFUL, So great is its penetration that I fear hearing the allegretto when I'm alone, Am I mad?

Do any of the enlightened posters here know any history regarding this piece? any background info would be greatly appreciated, I just NEED to know WHY and HOW did the master come to grasp the essence of sadness, despair and ultimate struggle in matter of 7 minutes.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Suflex:
Hi all,

First I'd like to commend the forum moderators and posters on the excellent standard maintained through out. Music lovers indeed.


I'm a 30 year old male Egyptian, been playing rock guitar for around 11 years now, and though we've always had Beethoven's music playing in our house throughout my younger years, I really did not try to dig deeper than the 5th symphony until recently. and my efforts were rewarded with the heavenly gift that is Beethoven's music.

The glory of the 3rd symphony, the tenderness of the Emperor concerto, the storm of the tempest sonata are all now etched firmly within my soul, but one piece that has literally haunted me since I first heard it was the 2nd movement from the 7th symphony... This is way beyond music, it is just so POWERFUL, So great is its penetration that I fear hearing the allegretto when I'm alone, Am I mad?

Do any of the enlightened posters here know any history regarding this piece? any background info would be greatly appreciated, I just NEED to know WHY and HOW did the master come to grasp the essence of sadness, despair and ultimate struggle in matter of 7 minutes.

I play rock guitar too! I've made some comments myself about this movement at the main site: http://www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/symphonies.html

But the movement is not all doom and gloom to my mind, like we often see in Beethoven's output there are contrasting moods to be found even in predominantly minor-mode movements, for example the two 'pastoral' episodes that appear.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Suflex]

Rod,

Thanks for your reply and for the link, great effort by the way, easily understandable for a Beethoven 'newbie' like myself.

I'm well aware of the purpose of the 2 pastoral themes in the movement, but to my perception they only served to emphasis the sense of 'doom' in the piece, I can hear a sort of restrained anger, but.... this is were one becomes too subjective.

Thanks again.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Suflex:
Rod,

Thanks for your reply and for the link, great effort by the way, easily understandable for a Beethoven 'newbie' like myself.

I'm well aware of the purpose of the 2 pastoral themes in the movement, but to my perception they only served to emphasis the sense of 'doom' in the piece, I can hear a sort of restrained anger, but.... this is were one becomes too subjective.

Thanks again.

Well I agree Beethoven often uses a switch to the major mode as a vehicle to enhance the effect of the minor key theme when it returns, but I think these things are also basic necessities of composition to avoid monotony, the trick is to make it all sound convincing as opposed to contrived.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-11-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Suflex:
Hi all,

First I'd like to commend the forum moderators and posters on the excellent standard maintained through out. Music lovers indeed.


I'm a 30 year old male Egyptian, been playing rock guitar for around 11 years now, and though we've always had Beethoven's music playing in our house throughout my younger years, I really did not try to dig deeper than the 5th symphony until recently. and my efforts were rewarded with the heavenly gift that is Beethoven's music.

The glory of the 3rd symphony, the tenderness of the Emperor concerto, the storm of the tempest sonata are all now etched firmly within my soul, but one piece that has literally haunted me since I first heard it was the 2nd movement from the 7th symphony... This is way beyond music, it is just so POWERFUL, So great is its penetration that I fear hearing the allegretto when I'm alone, Am I mad?

Do any of the enlightened posters here know any history regarding this piece? any background info would be greatly appreciated, I just NEED to know WHY and HOW did the master come to grasp the essence of sadness, despair and ultimate struggle in matter of 7 minutes.

Well this movement was an instant hit at its first performance in 1813 and had to be repeated. Frequently it was taken out of context and substituted as the slow movement of the 2nd symphony and even the 8th. I do agree with Rod that the mood isn't one of despair - a quality not normally associated with Beethoven. The tempo marking is Allegretto which in itself is generally employed by composers to indicate a light-hearted piece - a warning to conductors not to take it too slow. However the mood is sombre, but the major sections with contrasting woodwind provide a sunny interlude. The rhythm is all pervasive and it had a great influence on composers such as Schubert.

[Joy]

I can't imagine having the 2nd movement of the 7th (or any movement for that matter) being substituted in another symphony but I know that story too. This work was dedicated to the count Moritz von Fries. We all know the story of Wagner calling this symphony the 'apotheosis of the dance' and each movement is has it's own rythmic figure which permeates the entire movement. I believe the 72 bar introduction is the longest of any of the symphonies. The allegretto seemed to be the most popular and was encored at the first performance. It's a wonderful symphony in it's whole and the 2nd movement is haunting. I know some people who call it a funeral march or a durge but isn't it in reality a 'march'? I could be wrong.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Rod]

Issue is in this case the rhythm is not a typical allegretto even if the texure required is lighter (B composed other rather sombre allegrettos). The opening slow march (but not too slow!) more closely resembles an Andante. This led to confusion even in Beethoven's day and after his death as i mention at the 'Symphonies' page.

So if Beethoven actually did title the piece simply as allegretto I think he was being a bit lazy by his own standards. Schinder for what it's worth said Beethoven became aware of the mistake and would have liked to have changed it. I would say Andante con moto quasi allegretto is nearer the actuality of what one hears.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-11-2005).]

[Michael]

Just to spoil things for everybody and generally lower the tone of this thread, has anyone ever listened to Sarah Brightman's vocal version of this sublime movement? Well, my advice is - don't.

Michael

[Suflex]

I've never heard of Sarah Brightman's record, but I did read about a French Jazz pianist -Can't recall the name- who did an entire record of jazzed up variations on the subject movement.

[Joy]

I've heard Sarah's rendition of it and like most other music I don't like when it is changed from the original format no matter how nice the voice may be, purist that I am.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Uniqor]

This is what's in my mind when the second movement comes and goes:

A sunless day, a sombre and quite, yet extrememly large crowd gathered in the town square. What's the occasion? A hero's funeral is just taking place.

There! People's heads are turned towards the end of the road - must be the coffin's arrival. It's getting nearer and nearer, the intensity is almost beyond one can bear. Now, it can be seen, before long, it's right here in front! Overwhelmed by emotion, the mind becomes blank.

The coffin gets further away, the heart now takes a breathe, while the mind is now filled by the glorious and loving memory of this hero. Suddenly the sun shines and we traveled back into history, what joy and tranquility. Like a sweet dream, reality crashes down once again, just when the coffin is about to dissapeare from the horizen.

Again, the above isn't fictional but what I really imagined during hearing this piece. I get very close to Beethoven when hearing it -it's as if I'm in the funeral of the master himself.

[gprengel]

Hallo Suflex, you asked regarding the 2snd movement of the 7th symphony:

<<Do any of the enlightened posters here know any history regarding this piece? any background info would be greatly appreciated>>

Well, first of all I was very touched to read your passionate words of how much you have been moved by this music. I wholeheartly can aggree to all you said! It makes me happy to see how a person coming from an altogether different culture can feel regarding this music exactly the way I do!

Regarding your question: The theme of this movement Beethoven received while composing the stringquartett op.59,3 in 1806, about 6 years before he worked on the 7th! The slow movement of this quartett is also in a-minor, so I think we can say that first Beethoven tried to use this theme for this quartett, but he realised that if would better for a symphony. So he kept it for the 7th symphony!

Regards
Gerd