The Perfection of Beethoven`s Music

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think that's a little unfair to a man who wrote around 70 quartets which chart his career - the last of which was completed in 1803(a few years after B's Op.18) aged 71! It was actually his last composition in any form and the remaining 6 years of his life were a steady decline. He was simply worn out as the previous decade had produced a flowering of his genius with masterpiece after masterpiece.

Just to get the chronology right: Beethoven`s op.18 was published as two sets of three, in June & October, 1801. This is fully two years after Haydn was commissioned to write six quartets by Prince Lobkowitz; three years later, he had completed only two (op.77); he never finished a third, claiming that his strength had gone. In the interim, Beethoven`s six quartets had already been enthusiastically received by the same Prince dedicatee!

After decades of perfecting the art of quartet writing, Haydn knew that this new kid on the block was already beyond him, & old or not, he had the good sense to retire. Haydn`s quartets from op.33 onwards are masterpieces, but none is greater than any of Beethoven`s very first efforts in the medium.

------------------
Peter (PDG)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:

After decades of perfecting the art of quartet writing, Haydn knew that this new kid on the block was already beyond him, & old or not, he had the good sense to retire. Haydn`s quartets from op.33 onwards are masterpieces, but none is greater than any of Beethoven`s very first efforts in the medium.

You say it yourself about Haydn 'after decades of perfecting the Art of quartet writing' - Beethoven was a mature artist by the time he attempted the Op.18 quartets and they would not have been possible without the examples of Haydn or Mozart.

I've no doubt that Haydn was fully aware of B's genius just as he had been of Mozart's. I don't think for one minute that this internationally celebrated composer with the recent successes of The Creation and the Seasons and having written two movements of his last quartet as late as 1803 would have suddenly said to himself - 'that B's better than me, I'd better stop!' He felt that Mozart was a greater composer than himself but that didn't prevent him from composing. He must have left that last Quartet incomplete for other reasons, not because B's Op.18 injected him with a massive dose of inferiority and paralysed his creative capacity. I suggest ill-health and the drying up of his inspiration were the reasons.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
This is news to me, during my time at Beethoven forums no Beethoven work other than op16 has been the subject of greater critisism (not from myself)!

It just goes to show this is a far more knowledgable forum! The Op.18 quartets are not of even quality, some are better than others and to me, No.1 is the best. It is as fine a work as any from the first period.

You speak of Salieri and Clementi as though they were Mahler and Wagner!

And you speak of those two gentlemen as though they were Pinky and Perky!




------------------
'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
You say it yourself about Haydn 'after decades of perfecting the Art of quartet writing' - Beethoven was a mature artist by the time he attempted the Op.18 quartets and they would not have been possible without the examples of Haydn or Mozart.
I've no doubt that Haydn was fully aware of B's genius just as he had been of Mozart's. I don't think for one minute that this internationally celebrated composer with the recent successes of The Creation and the Seasons and having written two movements of his last quartet as late as 1803 would have suddenly said to himself - 'that B's better than me, I'd better stop!' He felt that Mozart was a greater composer than himself but that didn't prevent him from composing. He must have left that last Quartet incomplete for other reasons, not because B's Op.18 injected him with a massive dose of inferiority and paralysed his creative capacity. I suggest ill-health and the drying up of his inspiration were the reasons.

Had Haydn`s 1799 commission not come from the same recipient (Prince Lobkowitz) of Beethoven`s op.18, I think he would have completed at least the 3rd of the 6 intended quartets.

Mozart & Haydn were, of course, very good friends, & had enormous respect for one another; there was certainly no rivalry between them. This cannot be said of Beethoven & Haydn! I think that Beethoven`s general musical direction was seen as a sign by Haydn to retire; his `drying up` of inspiration can also be attributed, at least in part, to the apparently ceaseless inspiration being enjoyed by the younger composer.

------------------
Peter (PDG)

[Serge]

IF Haydn did not complete his quartets because of Ludwig, do you think he may have mentioned to anyone any sort of resentment during the remainder of his life?

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:

Mozart & Haydn were, of course, very good friends, & had enormous respect for one another; there was certainly no rivalry between them. This cannot be said of Beethoven & Haydn! I think that Beethoven`s general musical direction was seen as a sign by Haydn to retire; his `drying up` of inspiration can also be attributed, at least in part, to the apparently ceaseless inspiration being enjoyed by the younger composer.

I do not accept for one moment that any of Beethoven's works had the effect of inducing Haydn to give up composing. As far as I am aware Haydn's last Quartets were intended for Count Fries - Haydn sent the incomplete Quartet with a note : 'Gone is all my strength, Old and weak am I.'

Haydn had plans for another Oratorio as well, but his memory and nerves were failing him - he said 'Musical ideas pursue me to the point of torture. I cannot get rid of them, they stand before me like a wall' - In fact Haydn was showing signs of senility.

Though Haydn never enjoyed the intimate relationship with Beethoven that he had with Mozart, I don't believe there was any rivalry between the two - just a misunderstanding stemming from B's over-reaction and misinterpreting of Haydn's remarks re.the Op.1 trios. Haydn was a man of the utmost modesty and not given to petty jealousies.

------------------
'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 03-14-2001).]