The Perfection of Beethoven`s Music

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Fine - take Mozart's Sonata and fantasia in C minor K.457 (a work often ironically referred to as 'Beethovian')and compare it to Beethoven's Sonata in the same key, C minor Op.13. The Mozart uses a wider harmonic palate than the Beethoven. I'm not saying that the Mozart is superior, only that it is different and a masterpiece in its own right.

Well, I'm sure you will recall from earlier times my contention that 'first period' Beethoven is seriously underrated compared to works by Mozart and Schubert produced at a similar age. I suggested B's best efforts were at least as good or even better than theirs by this criterion. Of course this idea was laughed at by most, even at a Beethoven Forum! I hold the blame squarely with the lame Romatic interpretations of the modern era which rob much of B's early works of their youthfull fire and dynamism, whereas with M and S they have not suffered so much from this confusion and maltreatment - their respective musical 'schools' being less the subject of debate, certainly in M's case (firmly classical, with S being a true quasi/proto-Romantic (albeit a very crude one with his instrumental music) in a way that Beethoven is truely not, despite what Furtwangler and Co thought). Hope I haven't started any fireworks here!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, I'm sure you will recall from earlier times my contention that 'first period' Beethoven is seriously underrated compared to works by Mozart and Schubert produced at a similar age. I suggested B's best efforts were at least as good or even better than theirs by this criterion

I do and you will recall I agreed with you - I actually posted a thread at the 'other place' making this point. The Sonatas of Haydn,Mozart and Schubert have indeed suffered (in comparison to Beethoven) from the same 19th century view that regarded early Beethoven as inferior, which is as ludicrous as comparing a Bach Harpsichord suite to a sonata of Beethoven and finding it wanting.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I do and you will recall I agreed with you - I actually posted a thread at the 'other place' making this point. The Sonatas of Haydn,Mozart and Schubert have indeed suffered (in comparison to Beethoven) from the same 19th century view that regarded early Beethoven as inferior, which is as ludicrous as comparing a Bach Harpsichord suite to a sonata of Beethoven and finding it wanting.

Was it you or another Peter I crossed swords with over the quality of Schubert's and indeed Mozart's efforts relative to Beethoven's?

Mozart and Schubert's post adolescent works despite being relatively youthfull are recognised as mature works of genius, whereas B's respective efforts up to the age circa early 30's are not typically given such an accolade, but rather they are seen more as a stepping stone to the middle period which surpasses them - thus only by the middle period is Beethoven really regarded as becomming fully 'mature', but by this time, age wise, M and S were already dead! I suggested that you cannot suddenly become a genius at the age of 35, and be only a good composer before that.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Michael]

Like most people, I began with the "middle" sonatas (Waldstein etc.), then proceeded to the late ones and only after a number of years did I hear the early sonatas - and what a shock I got! Rod is right when he says that B didn't suddenly become a genius at 35 - he revealed that fact long before Opus 1 came out.
I am just on the opening chapters of Barry Cooper's book on B, which very much bears out the above contention. As Peter remarked somewhere, B was too great in his middle and late periods and, as a result, his early period is very much undervalued.

Michael

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
First of all bare in mind the recent arguments about period instruments and remember that Mozart's (5 octave)Walther FP was an instrument less advanced than those available to Beethoven. Remember also that Mozart was one of the first composers to write specifically for the Forte-piano (having been trained in the Harpsichord school of playing) and the examples available to him in this genre would have been primarily those of C.P.E Bach and Haydn.
'Compete' is the wrong word to use - I would say as masterpieces in their own right they can be fairly compared, particularly to the early sonatas of B such as the Op.2 set you mentioned. Mozart is not at his best in most of the Sonatas but there are exceptions - the main reason for this is that they were written primarily for teaching purposes unlike the Concertos which Mozart himself played.
The Sonatas I regard as great are K.310 /K.457/K.533/K.570/K.576.

Maybe it`s the pedagogy aspect that appeals to you, Peter! I love Mozart`s sonatas, but they are not in the same class as Beethoven`s or Schubert`s.

Regards Mozart`s 5-octave fortepiano; this restriction didn`t prevent him from giving us the greatest concerto cycle in the repertoire.

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Peter (PDG)

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
Was it you or another Peter I crossed swords with over the quality of Schubert's and indeed Mozart's efforts relative to Beethoven's?

Well, it wasn`t me!

Mozart and Schubert's post adolescent works despite being relatively youthfull are recognised as mature works of genius, whereas B's respective efforts up to the age circa early 30's are not typically given such an accolade, but rather they are seen more as a stepping stone to the middle period which surpasses them - thus only by the middle period is Beethoven really regarded as becomming fully 'mature', but by this time, age wise, M and S were already dead! I suggested that you cannot suddenly become a genius at the age of 35, and be only a good composer before that.

This is a good point. People refer to the mature works of Mozart, Schubert, Mendelssohn, etc., even though they all died so young; but the truth is that none of them realised his full potential. And, incredibly, neither did Beethoven - had he lived as long as Haydn (another 20 years), God alone knows what he might have produced.

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Peter (PDG)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
I love Mozart`s sonatas, but they are not in the same class as Beethoven`s or Schubert`s.

On the whole you are right, but the 5 (out of the 19) I mention are first rate Mozart - If you think them inferior, then you think Mozart an inferior composer to Beethoven generally. As for Schubert, again only a handful are first rate, particularly the last 3.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Was it you or another Peter I crossed swords with over the quality of Schubert's and indeed Mozart's efforts relative to Beethoven's?

There can't be two of us with such an insight into M&S !

I suggested that you cannot suddenly become a genius at the age of 35, and be only a good composer before that.

Indeed, but I think around the age of 25 a great composer has mastered his craft and works written after that tend to be of superior quality - Didn't B say of Op.18 that he had only just mastered the art of quartet writing?


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Indeed, but I think around the age of 25 a great composer has mastered his craft and works written after that tend to be of superior quality

And would you say this is equally the case with Mozart and Schubert as it is with Beethoven?

Originally posted by Peter:

- Didn't B say of Op.18 that he had only just mastered the art of quartet writing?

Yes, though specifically relating to the re-write of No.1. Why he left it so late to start quartet writing is a matter of conjecture, but it is typically assumed he was daunted by the standard set by Mozart and Haydn, though by this logic B obviously thought less of M's sonatas!. Paradoxically this first set is the least understood and the least mastered of all B's quartets in my opinion. I only hope I live long enough to hear them played in a worthy manner. They obviously present a greater interpretive challenge than the later works!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

And would you say this is equally the case with Mozart and Schubert as it is with Beethoven?

Definitely !

Why he left it so late to start quartet writing is a matter of conjecture, but it is typically assumed he was daunted by the standard set by Mozart and Haydn, though by this logic B obviously thought less of M's sonatas!

I think most composers would regard quartet writing as more of a challenge than writing a Sonata, especially if the composer was a vituoso pianist! To my mind Haydn wrote some of the greatest String quartets before Beethoven, and there certainly would not have been Op.18 without the examples of Mozart and Haydn.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

I think most composers would regard quartet writing as more of a challenge than writing a Sonata, especially if the composer was a vituoso pianist! To my mind Haydn wrote some of the greatest String quartets before Beethoven, and there certainly would not have been Op.18 without the examples of Mozart and Haydn.
[/B]

I would have thought the string trio would be an at least an exacting medium as the quartet, perhaps even more so, yet B mastered this genre immediately with op3/8/9 . Then B thought nothing of considerably developing the wind octet to a string quintet (op4). So surely, per se, quartet writing would not have been such a big deal under these circumstances? The fact that there is so much of H and M on op18 hints that B was indeed overawed (unnecessarily so in my opinion) by these illustrious benchmarks with regard to quartet writing in particular. One could see this 'kneebending' as a crippling influence of B's creativity at that time in his career. With the advantage of hindsight I suggest perhaps he gave these chaps a little too much respect?


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
And would you say this is equally the case with Mozart and Schubert as it is with Beethoven?
Definitely !
Why he left it so late to start quartet writing is a matter of conjecture, but it is typically assumed he was daunted by the standard set by Mozart and Haydn, though by this logic B obviously thought less of M's sonatas!
I think most composers would regard quartet writing as more of a challenge than writing a Sonata, especially if the composer was a vituoso pianist! To my mind Haydn wrote some of the greatest String quartets before Beethoven, and there certainly would not have been Op.18 without the examples of Mozart and Haydn.

As to the quickly-acquired mastery of Beethoven in the op.18 set, surely it is more than just coincidence that as soon as these quartets appeared, Haydn stopped writing them. He knew the torch had been passed on. The worm had turned, so to speak!

Regarding quartet writing, I think it is generally accepted that it is the most difficult musical medium to master. Brahms wrote string sextets before attempting quartets, & even Mozart, who could first-draft Eine Kleine Nachtmusik as the finished article(!) was always troubled; his quartet sketches are full of crossings-out & corrections.

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Peter (PDG)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
As to the quickly-acquired mastery of Beethoven in the op.18 set, surely it is more than just coincidence that as soon as these quartets appeared, Haydn stopped writing them. He knew the torch had been passed on. The worm had turned, so to speak!

I think that's a little unfair to a man who wrote around 70 quartets which chart his career - the last of which was completed in 1803(a few years after B's Op.18) aged 71! It was actually his last composition in any form and the remaining 6 years of his life were a steady decline. He was simply worn out as the previous decade had produced a flowering of his genius with masterpiece after masterpiece.



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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
The fact that there is so much of H and M on op18 hints that B was indeed overawed (unnecessarily so in my opinion) by these illustrious benchmarks with regard to quartet writing in particular. One could see this 'kneebending' as a crippling influence of B's creativity at that time in his career. With the advantage of hindsight I suggest perhaps he gave these chaps a little too much respect?

Crippling influence! come on ! - The Op.18 set are generally regarded as the high point in the first period works, more so than the first 2 symphonies. You speak of Mozart and Haydn as though they were Salieri and Clementi!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Crippling influence! come on ! - The Op.18 set are generally regarded as the high point in the first period works, more so than the first 2 symphonies.

This is news to me, during my time at Beethoven forums no Beethoven work other than op16 has been the subject of greater critisism (not from myself)!

Originally posted by Peter:

You speak of Mozart and Haydn as though they were Salieri and Clementi!

You speak of Salieri and Clementi as though they were Mahler and Wagner!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin