The Perfection of Beethoven`s Music

[PDG]

Beethoven`s middle name might well have been Sonata-form, so perfectly did he marry his understanding of balanced musical structure with deployment of strong, original material & development of thematic ideas. Even more than his nearest competitors, Mozart & Schubert, his weighty themes were never let down by not having such strong development of them. The hardest thing about composing is making the development of an idea as strong & interesting as the idea itself. In this respect, Beethoven`s genius had no peer.
But so much more than this, each component movement of any Beethoven work seems to belong, unfailingly, uniquely, to its assigned work. This was his most underrated gift - each mvt of each work represents an utterly sensible, logical, cohesive, unchallengeable step towards the eventually-revealed umbrella whole.
There is a phenomenal inevitability about Beethoven; natural musical perfection from every angle: poised, yet challenging; balanced, yet far-reaching; wonderfully, reassuringly human, yet other-worldly.
Comments?
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Peter (PDG)

[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 03-10-2001).]

[Chris]

I think the O's have no shot at the playoffs this year.

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Oh, you mean comments about your post! Well, yes, I agree totally I might add that many times Beethoven's development of a theme is far MORE strong and interesting than the theme itself.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 03-10-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
Beethoven`s middle name might well have been Sonata-form, so perfectly did he marry his understanding of balanced musical structure with deployment of strong, original ideas & development of thematic ideas.
Comments?

Ludwig Sonata-form Beethoven !

You're right though - Beethoven was the greatest master of it. Mozart was far more succesful than Schubert in this respect as the more lyrical style of S was moving towards romanticism - this is the problem the Romantic composers had as long melodic phrases are not ideally suited to development in the way short motives or Rhythmic cells that are common in Beethoven are. An example is the 1st movement of Symphony 5 where it seems as though the whole work is preordained in those first few bars. Brahms was the most succesful Romantic composer to work with Sonata form (which is why he was regarded as old-fashioned in the 19th century) as his themes are often motivic such as the opening of Symphony 2. This ties up with our other thread on B and Romanticism .

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 03-10-2001).]

[PDG]

Chris,

Agreed, although of course I am talking sonata-form. Not variation-form, where LvB was an absolute master at spinning almost unlimited variety from even the most mundane of themes (eg. op.120, Diabelli).
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Peter (PDG)

[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 03-10-2001).]

[Chris]

Of course, I meant sonata form as well.

[Michael]

Originally posted by Chris:
I might add that many times Beethoven's development of a theme is far MORE strong and interesting than the theme itself.

Maybe. But when his themes emerge from the developing process, then you realise how strong and interesting they really are. You can't isolate a Beethoven theme and say it is unmelodic or uninteresting - his music is so integrated that the full potential of his tunes can only be appreciated in a complete movement, and sometimes a complete work.
Or, to put it another way, chunks of Beethoven bleed more than those of other composers.

Michael

[PDG]

Originally posted by Michael:
Maybe. But when his themes emerge from the developing process, then you realise how strong and interesting they really are. You can't isolate a Beethoven theme and say it is unmelodic or uninteresting - his music is so integrated that the full potential of his tunes can only be appreciated in a complete movement, and sometimes a complete work.
Or, to put it another way, chunks of Beethoven bleed more than those of other composers.
Michael

We`re on the same wavelength, Michael. There is such an absolutely flawless logic to the flow of his music, that its almost difficult to think that he didn`t compose in reverse - start off with the whole work, then break it down into movements, & finally reduce those to themes for development. His immaculate mastery of his art was on a different plain to even Mozart. I know it`s an unproveable theory, but I firmly believe that Mozart would have floundered by trying to develop a Beethoven theme as well as B did, whereas B would have made mincemeat of any Mozart theme.

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Peter (PDG)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
We`re on the same wavelength, Michael. There is such an absolutely flawless logic to the flow of his music, that its almost difficult to think that he didn`t compose in reverse - start off with the whole work, then break it down into movements, & finally reduce those to themes for development. His immaculate mastery of his art was on a different plain to even Mozart. I know it`s an unproveable theory, but I firmly believe that Mozart would have floundered by trying to develop a Beethoven theme as well as B did, whereas B would have made mincemeat of any Mozart theme.

That certainly is debatable ! What about the closing pages of the Jupiter Symphony where Mozart combines all 5 themes which fit together like a jig-saw and are rightly regarded as one of the marvels of classical music? I do not deny that Beethoven expanded the development of his thematic material to a far greater extent than Mozart, but that doesn't imply that Mozart is inferior. The inevitably of B's music as you describe it isn't unique - it is a hallmark of a truly great composer. I find the same perfection and 'flawless logic' in the music of Mozart and others such as Bach and Handel.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
That certainly is debatable ! What about the closing pages of the Jupiter Symphony where Mozart combines all 5 themes which fit together like a jig-saw and are rightly regarded as one of the marvels of classical music? I do not deny that Beethoven expanded the development of his thematic material to a far greater extent than Mozart, but that doesn't imply that Mozart is inferior. The inevitably of B's music as you describe it isn't unique - it is a hallmark of a truly great composer. I find the same perfection and 'flawless logic' in the music of Mozart and others such as Bach and Handel.

Sonata-form, Peter, sonata-form!! So if we could please leave Handel & Bach to one side on this one?...........

Yes, at the very end of the very last symphony, Mozart began to show his mastery of fully-integrated sonata-form writing, but Beethoven was fully versed in it by his early 20s - compare the op.2 sonatas with any by M; which are the greater, more important works in the genre? I suggest that B "expanded the development of his thematic material to a far greater extent than M" because (a); his thematic material warranted greater development, & (b); his unparalleled sixth sense for compositional invention meant he was able to push his ideas to their limits, within their respective movements. M never seemed to really test the water with his compositions, because his musical invention was not as strong - I know there may be reasons why, but he never achieved the depth in his music that B did.

It`s the same with Haydn. Didn`t he declare that his "strength had gone" regarding his string quartet writing, after B revealed to the world (i)his(i) very first quartet efforts, op.18? Haydn knew that the young upstart was already writing beyond him!

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Peter (PDG)

[Michael]

Beethoven seems to me to depend more on context than Haydn or Mozart. Isolate a passage from any of those two and it will stand on its own two feet, so to speak. But take a piece of Beethoven - let's say, the transition passage from the Scherzo to the Finale of the Fifth Symphony - play it on it's own, and it will indeed sound like "the intolerable miaowing of cats."
Or try omitting the introduction to the Seventh Symphony and beginning with the Vivace and you will find it has lost much of its power. It depends for its sheer grandeur on that amazing introduction which itself only consists of scales, dotted rhythms and repeated E's, and of course a grand tour around the keys of A, C and F.
Play the opening theme of the "Waldstein" for somebody who hasn't heard it before and he will probably say "Where is the theme? I hear only a throb!" But wait - by the time the counterstatement of that "throb" comes around the magic is starting. Strictly speaking, you only get a tune when the second subject arrives, but it is all the more beautiful for the way it has been set up. B is the master of long-range music.

Michael
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[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
compare the op.2 sonatas with any by M; which are the greater, more important works in the genre? M never seemed to really test the water with his compositions, because his musical invention was not as strong - I know there may be reasons why, but he never achieved the depth in his music that B did.

I'll let Dennis Mathews answer that one:

"Nevertheless the value of art does not always move forward in an upward graph.We cannot say, as the 19th century tended to say, that Beethoven 'carried on where his predecessors left off', as though one might improve on Haydn or Mozart. Art does not respond to such reasoning. Beethoven plumbed not greater but different depths: he represented a different type of artist, a different age."

There are a good half dozen Mozart Sonatas that rank with the greatest by any composer.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
I'll let Dennis Mathews answer that one:
"Nevertheless the value of art does not always move forward in an upward graph.We cannot say, as the 19th century tended to say, that Beethoven 'carried on where his predecessors left off', as though one might improve on Haydn or Mozart. Art does not respond to such reasoning. Beethoven plumbed not greater but different depths: he represented a different type of artist, a different age."
There are a good half dozen Mozart Sonatas that rank with the greatest by any composer.

Peter, please nominate the "good half dozen" Mozart sonatas which can compete with any by Beethoven?
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Peter (PDG)

[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 03-12-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
Peter, please nominate the "good half dozen" Mozart sonatas which can compete with any by Beethoven?

First of all bare in mind the recent arguments about period instruments and remember that Mozart's (5 octave)Walther FP was an instrument less advanced than those available to Beethoven. Remember also that Mozart was one of the first composers to write specifically for the Forte-piano (having been trained in the Harpsichord school of playing) and the examples available to him in this genre would have been primarily those of C.P.E Bach and Haydn.

'Compete' is the wrong word to use - I would say as masterpieces in their own right they can be fairly compared, particularly to the early sonatas of B such as the Op.2 set you mentioned. Mozart is not at his best in most of the Sonatas but there are exceptions - the main reason for this is that they were written primarily for teaching purposes unlike the Concertos which Mozart himself played.

The Sonatas I regard as great are K.310 /K.457/K.533/K.570/K.576.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
First of all bare in mind the recent arguments about period instruments and remember that Mozart's (5 octave)Walther FP was an instrument less advanced than those available to Beethoven.

Well, you can include all of B's sonatas prior to the 'Waldstein' as they were all written for 5 octave instruments such as the Walter.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, you can include all of B's sonatas prior to the 'Waldstein' as they were all written for 5 octave instruments such as the Walter.

Fine - take Mozart's Sonata and fantasia in C minor K.457 (a work often ironically referred to as 'Beethovian')and compare it to Beethoven's Sonata in the same key, C minor Op.13. The Mozart uses a wider harmonic palate than the Beethoven. I'm not saying that the Mozart is superior, only that it is different and a masterpiece in its own right.



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'Man know thyself'