BBC Radio 3 "Beethoven Experience"

[Uniqor]

So Rod, my new nemisis, this is the way I look at it:

Throughout the programme, Hazelwood's been trying to make this one point - Mozart lived music. By that he meant that Mozart composed out of his own living experiences, thus he's achieved a level of humanity in music that nobody before nor after has achieved. The popularity of Mozart's music with literally everybody, is based on this innate, unspoken and immediate connection that connects every human soul. You don't need to learn to like Mozart - you just love him the very first time. Nietzsche said: "Beethoven composed music by listening music; Mozart composed music by gazing into life."

Michael, thanks for the infor, I'll be watching it for sure.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Uniqor:
The popularity of Mozart's music with literally everybody

How I wish that were true - the world would certainly be a better place!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Uniqor:
So Rod, my new nemisis, this is the way I look at it:

Throughout the programme, Hazelwood's been trying to make this one point - Mozart lived music. By that he meant that Mozart composed out of his own living experiences, thus he's achieved a level of humanity in music that nobody before nor after has achieved. The popularity of Mozart's music with literally everybody, is based on this innate, unspoken and immediate connection that connects every human soul. You don't need to learn to like Mozart - you just love him the very first time. Nietzsche said: "Beethoven composed music by listening music; Mozart composed music by gazing into life."

Michael, thanks for the infor, I'll be watching it for sure.

In Nietzsche's day they talked too much.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-09-2005).]

[Uniqor]

I don't even know how to reply to you with that, Rod...

Peter, true.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Uniqor:
I don't even know how to reply to you with that, Rod...

Peter, true.

Are these useful comments of any genuine musical worth or insight?? Can you tell me what he means by these things?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[urtextmeister]

If we listened to Nietzsche, we would be killing off the elderly and sick children. I'm sure he had many great ideas and, no I haven't his complete works. I have to agree with Rod about the above comment, though. It seems to me both Beethoven and Mozart are about music and about life. I suppose that could be said about any great composer.

I would like to use this opportunity to make an observation about Mozart, one that I feel more strongly about the more I listen and study his works:
Mozart's genius was in finding the simplest and most elegant musical solution. That very quality of seamless perfection is what leaves some people cold. I first came to this conclusion while working on the score to Marriage of Figaro. Everything in that opera is such perfect eloquence. Nothing forced, nothing beyond what is needed to express the words.

It is like when an equation comes along that perfectly explains a mathematical problem. An elegant solution. That's how I see Mozart's music.

[Sorrano]

I think that all Nietzsche was saying in the above quote is that Mozart received musical inspiration in a different way than did Beethoven. Whereas Beethoven had to work and labor over each note, Mozart's ideas flowed freely in their final form through his head.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I think that all Nietzsche was saying in the above quote is that Mozart received musical inspiration in a different way than did Beethoven. Whereas Beethoven had to work and labor over each note, Mozart's ideas flowed freely in their final form through his head.

In that case Handel's much better ideas flowed even quicker and more freely than Mozart's, around three weeks or even less was enough for him to compose material like Messiah.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Uniqor]

I think Nietzsche would closely relate Beethoven with Handel. For Nietzsche, Handel was very inventive with musical ideas and composed rather mathematically. Nietzsche doubted whether Handel actually enjoyed his compositional proccess, he thought "Handel must felt really glad when a piece is finished". Beethoven shared some common ground here. Some of the man's most beautiful melody is the result of a note-for-note hard working - a selective and refurnishing proccess. This way of composing is resulted from "listening to music and draw inspiration from it", according to Nietzsche. For Mozart, the story is different.

Listening to the finale of the Jupiter and the finale of Eroica, I personaly get a very different feel. Eroica shook me in a way that's so artistical, musical and its power derives from its effective musicality. Jupiter in contrast, doesn't have those inventive and complex ideas. The ending is a five part fuge with a double repeated three cord strike to finish. Hazelwood put it nicely: "when the fuge comes, it's as if the whole world is right here". And for me, the three cords are laden with a bursting emotion of geniun self-expression, and what's being expressed is so upright, grand and fantastic - I felt Mozart then - I saw his heart. All I get from Beethoven was the man's ambitiousness and a common feel for heros - it's much drier in terms of humaness.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Uniqor:
All I get from Beethoven was the man's ambitiousness and a common feel for heros - it's much drier in terms of humaness.

What you're referring to I think is this personal, intimate quality. Well you certainly find this perhaps more in the late works - for example you couldn't describe the Heiliger Dankgesang from Op.132, the 1st movt of Op.101, the Cavatina from Op.130 or the arioso from Op.110 as lacking humaness.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-10-2005).]

[Uniqor]

Thanks for the comment Peter, it made me think, and this is what I thought:

Yes, that was what I was trying to refer to, and for many, that's the ultimate aim of music - to achieve the most genuine expression of the heart. One thing about hardcore romanticism Nietsche dislike is the fact that it contradicts this ultimate goal, for it brings one into a dream world laden with erroneous fantasies. The harzardous effects brought about by that can be deeply penetrating to the soul and profoundly poison the future of the society as a whole.

The fact that you mentioned those late works by Beethoven being very "human", could serve to prove my point. Being impressive, ambitious and grandiose might be what the young Beethoven was all about. Later, the matured desire of being able to express the true heart began to surface. As a result, we have those shivering late work that give us goosebumps. Mozart was set for this way right from the start, that's why they say he's a genius - his whole life's work wasn't about searching for the goal, but instead, giving out what he's already got. Beethoven's talent lies in the ability to arrange sound to a dazzling and gorgeous level; Mozart's was about use the sound to reflect nothing else, but the person.

Hazelwood said that Mozart was infront of everybody else including Beethoven, I think he meant it in terms of this domain - genuine art, Nietzschian art, non-romantic art, the most beautiful and profound form of art - bare human art.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Uniqor:

Listening to the finale of the Jupiter and the finale of Eroica, I personaly get a very different feel. Eroica shook me in a way that's so artistical, musical and its power derives from its effective musicality. Jupiter in contrast, doesn't have those inventive and complex ideas. The ending is a five part fuge with a double repeated three cord strike to finish. Hazelwood put it nicely: "when the fuge comes, it's as if the whole world is right here". And for me, the three cords are laden with a bursting emotion of geniun self-expression, and what's being expressed is so upright, grand and fantastic - I felt Mozart then - I saw his heart. All I get from Beethoven was the man's ambitiousness and a common feel for heros - it's much drier in terms of humaness.

Actually the Fuge is the movement i like least in this symphony. I don't think it is inventive enough to justify its length, if you get my meaning.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
In that case Handel's much better ideas flowed even quicker and more freely than Mozart's, around three weeks or even less was enough for him to compose material like Messiah.

Comparing a one-time experience with a lifetime procedure isn't much of a comparison. But then, this isn't about who is superior but rather about from whence a composer's inspiration comes. Superiority is not relevant.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Comparing a one-time experience with a lifetime procedure isn't much of a comparison. But then, this isn't about who is superior but rather about from whence a composer's inspiration comes. Superiority is not relevant.

Well certainly speed of composition is no yardstick for quality. However it is still incredible that great masterpieces such as Schubert's last 3 sonatas, Mozart's last 3 symphonies and Handel's Messiah were written in a matter of weeks.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Comparing a one-time experience with a lifetime procedure isn't much of a comparison. But then, this isn't about who is superior but rather about from whence a composer's inspiration comes. Superiority is not relevant.

Mozart's 'superiority' in the eyes (ears) of the narrator was a fundamental aspect of 'The Genuis of Mozart'.

But i was meaning any of Handel's big works, I referred to Messiah only because I doubt if anyone else has heard most of the others I'm thinking about! For example the Ode 'L'Allegro, il Penseroso ed il Moderato', which Gardiner thinks is Handel's greatest English language work (despite its Italian title) took only 17 days for a piece filling 2 CDs. Even a colossal masterpiece like 'Theodora', lasting well over 3 hours, took only a month.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin