Beethoven - The first freelance ?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I bet it was a deliberate act of sabotage to prevent the free world from discovering what Beethoven thought of your beloved Mozart's adaptions of Handel's works!

As though I'd stoop to such a thing - and on a Beethoven forum at that!

Actually where did you get those B comments re.M and H?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
As though I'd stoop to such a thing - and on a Beethoven forum at that!

I'll believe you this time!

Originally posted by Peter:

Actually where did you get those B comments re.M and H?

I have read the quote regarding Beethoven's view of Mozart's Handel editions ('Handel would have survived without them') in a few books (try deleting this one!!), but it was the Handel biography by Lang (the best) that brought it to my attention most recently. I happy regarding the quote's authenticity.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have read the quote regarding Beethoven's view of Mozart's Handel editions ('Handel would have survived without them') in a few books (try deleting this one!!),

I'm always in favour of the facts! - Nothing too damning in B's comments anyway. I should imagine that B disapproved far more of M's Opera libretti than he did of the H transcriptions.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I'm always in favour of the facts! - Nothing too damning in B's comments anyway. I should imagine that B disapproved far more of M's Opera libretti than he did of the H transcriptions.

B's critical stance regarding libretti as a whole virtually ruled himself out of the opera market altogether. I suppose when you are used to reading the works of the great writers of history the garbage thown together by the typical librettists of that era must have seemed ludicrous.

It is obvious that B must have thought Handel had something Mozart hadn't to produce such a dramatic and certain shift of allegiance. I would say the earlier man's music is typically more interesting and musically engaging (without becomming superficial), more perfect in form and structure and supremely economical. What would you say?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

It is obvious that B must have thought Handel had something Mozart hadn't to produce such a dramatic and certain shift of allegiance. I would say the earlier man's music is typically more interesting and musically engaging (without becomming superficial), more perfect in form and structure and supremely economical. What would you say?

Since Mozart is regarded as 'Classical' a term meant to mean perfect form I can't really agree - Do you think Handel is more perfect in form than B? And anyhow how can you say that a Handel Concerti grosso is more perfect in form than a Mozart Piano concerto or Beethoven for that matter ?
When it comes to opera plots I think myths and legends are even more ludicrous than Mozart's attempts at real life situations - for example 'The Marriage of Figaro' with its very topical (for the time) political undertones. Is the Magic Flute that far removed from Fidelio when it comes to celebrating the triumph of love over evil?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Since Mozart is regarded as 'Classical' a term meant to mean perfect form I can't really agree - Do you think Handel is more perfect in form than B? And anyhow how can you say that a Handel Concerti grosso is more perfect in form than a Mozart Piano concerto or Beethoven for that matter ?

If Beethoven can select a champion across the two musical 'periods' then it can be done! In many respects I regard Handel to be the equal of Beethoven. H had the same good taste as B to know how and how not to treat his material. Thus everything seems just right. In terms of economy of writing (getting the most from the least) Handel is the champion. These factors probably impressed Beethoven particularly and I personally believe H easily licks M on these criteria. Both composers (H and B) produced music that is both moving but also exhilarating in the most sincere manner, they both uplift the spirit. The subsequent vast development of purely instrumental music provided B with the vehicle to make his mark, whilst still producing first rate vocal works in lesser numbers - with Handel the situation is reversed (which is why the two go together nicely). Ultimately B gets the prize for me with his consistantly high level of quality invention, but H is not far behind.

Originally posted by Peter:

When it comes to opera plots I think myths and legends are even more ludicrous than Mozart's attempts at real life situations - for example 'The Marriage of Figaro' with its very topical (for the time) political undertones. Is the Magic Flute that far removed from Fidelio when it comes to celebrating the triumph of love over evil?

I agree generally about the myths and legends, and Magic Flute but I'm not in particular talking just about the subject matter, but rather the standard of writing. I think most serious operas ever written involved something to do with good overcomming evil. In baroque opera, bad guys that were killed on stage often miraculously came back to life to join in the closing chorus! I have a video of Handel's Rodelinda where presisely this happens! If one suspends rational judgement such things are fine, but the world was becomming too realist for such things to be tollerated any longer, which is why Italian Baroque opera eventually died in London. I presume B was looking for a form of Shakespearian quality drama in his libretto's after the Leonore debacle. I don't think he ever could have got such a script into his hands.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
If one suspends rational judgement such things are fine, but the world was becomming too realist for such things to be tollerated any longer, which is why Italian Baroque opera eventually died in London. I presume B was looking for a form of Shakespearian quality drama in his libretto's after the Leonore debacle. I don't think he ever could have got such a script into his hands.

I suggest a lack of young men willing to be deprived of their manhood was another factor in the demise of Baroque opera!

Why Beethoven never wrote an opera based on his beloved Goethe's Faust before the Romantics got their hands on it I don't know.
The same with Shakespeare - what would Beethoven have done with Macbeth or Othello? These dramas were available to B, so why was he reluctant to go for it?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I suggest a lack of young men willing to be deprived of their manhood was another factor in the demise of Baroque opera!

I think it was only the Italians who relished this perverse practice, but I'm sure the Pope approved (not that any Catholic priest would ever dream of having such usefull parts removed!). They would have been ideal to play the Virgin Mary. The English always were somewhat horrified by it (we like to keep our balls). I don't mind countertenors though.

Originally posted by Peter:

Why Beethoven never wrote an opera based on his beloved Goethe's Faust before the Romantics got their hands on it I don't know.
The same with Shakespeare - what would Beethoven have done with Macbeth or Othello? These dramas were available to B, so why was he reluctant to go for it?

Don't know, were their any good libretti written on these subjects in B's time?


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Yeah, countertenors are definitely preferable to counterfeit tenners........

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Peter (PDG)

[AeolianHarp]

Financially, Beethoven was a destitute compared to Handel who was always seemed to be comfortably well off even when his shows were failures (which was quite often!). If B had come to England he would have become rich beyond his wildest dreams, I am sure of that.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

I think so too. And indeed he really wanted to come here- he seemed very aware of the great opportunities Blighty had to offer him. It is a shame he was too ill to come. But then, Beethoven wasn't composing to be rich, he wasn't materialistic just wanted to be paid what he was worth and to have enough to live comfortably. I always wonder though why one of those patrons didn't buy him/secure him a proper house to live in- he needed a proper place to live instead of those endless upstairs apartments.

[AeolianHarp]

B collapsing at the sight of the ticket figures hardly suggests a great success - most people expect a profit for their toils!

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'Man know thyself'

He collapsed?!

[Michael]

I'd say that's a figure of speech. He went ballistic (which wasn't unusual with him) and accused people of cheating him. It's a wonder that he didn't run off with the manuscript of the Ninth just like he did with "Leonore" back in 1805 or 1806.

[AeolianHarp]

I'd say that's a figure of speech. He went ballistic (which wasn't unusual with him) and accused people of cheating him. It's a wonder that he didn't run off with the manuscript of the Ninth just like he did with "Leonore" back in 1805 or 1806.

Well, maybe he wasn't being renumerated what he felt he was worth- I mean the Ninth....it was the apex of musical achievement really wasn't it!!!...
And of course he had more expenses now he was Karl's guardian.

I kind of like his fire to be honest- he stood up for himself and had such courage!

I am reading his letters on my Kindle right now, wonder what he writes about the Ninth...

[AeolianHarp]

I have just read some of his letters and he is annoyed with Lichonwsky, Schuppanzigh and Schindler and says the concert is off. They wanted to talk to him but he wasn't pleased. He seems to be annoyed with Schindler a lot!