The 9th's premiere a "financial disaster"? I thought Beethoven broke even.
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B collapsing at the sight of the ticket figures hardly suggests a great success - most people expect a profit for their toils!Originally posted by Serge:
The 9th's premiere a "financial disaster"? I thought Beethoven broke even.
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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I distinctly remember reading that Handel was broke and down and out on his luck when he wrote "The Messiah".Comment
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The stresses of musical life in London took its toll on Handel, it almost sent him to an early grave on a couple of occasions. As I mentioned earler, Handel had many musical failures, the biggest being ironically his greatest work, Theodora (it was too serious and has a sad ending!), Messiah was seen as blasphemous. He had to close his opera company more than once, but he always had the strength to start up again. Nevertheless, throughout all of this it seems Handel was never poor. He invested alot of money in shares and fine art.Originally posted by ~Leslie:
I distinctly remember reading that Handel was broke and down and out on his luck when he wrote "The Messiah".
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-08-2001).]Comment
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Handel always seemed to be comfortably well off even when his shows were failures, but he had to close his opera house more than once and had to find find the strength to start up again--even when the stresses of musical life almost sent him to an early grave (your points, Rod)... if you could perhaps explain, Rod, why you think Handel had the best 'financial acumen' of all composers and seemed to be 'never poor' when his shows were often failures (your words) and he almost died from the stress. I'm just wondering, is all, because it sounds like there's a lack of formal logic there.
p.s. from the evidence presented, I'd say Beethoven had just as much acumen as Handel after all.Comment
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I think you are confusing the stress of business with the stress of destitution. Wealthy Chief Executives can have heart attacks when business problems arise, due to the amount of responsibility involved when things turn sour. Handel was CE of his own opera/oratario company. Handel problems occured pricipally due to the changing socio-demographic nature of the concert goer. Opera was music for the social elite, and H got caught up in the tangled politics surrounding the English royal family who were (and still are) German, one minute he was in favour the next he was out of favour, also H's beloved Italian opera itself, with whom he destroyed all competition, was going out of fashion, but their was no real English equivalent to replace it, so Handel had to unenthusiastically invent a new English language genre, primarily the English Oratario, which proved especially popular amongst the 'pious' middle class once he worked out what their 'weaknesses' were. In such a changeable market I think H did well, especially for a composer of mainly serious music, for his successes always more than made up for his failures financially. H was also very popular as a man, he was a bit of a celebrity. By the time of his death, H had accumulated a princely sum in cash and investments that was self-made, this was particularly impressive at that time for a composer. If you can give me an example of another composer who could have done more in the circumstances I'd be interested to hear it. Beethoven himself could be shrewd financially, but he never took the business side of things as far as Handel. H was almost as much a business man as he was a composer.Originally posted by Serge:
Handel always seemed to be comfortably well off even when his shows were failures, but he had to close his opera house more than once and had to find find the strength to start up again--even when the stresses of musical life almost sent him to an early grave (your points, Rod)... if you could perhaps explain, Rod, why you think Handel had the best 'financial acumen' of all composers and seemed to be 'never poor' when his shows were often failures (your words) and he almost died from the stress. I'm just wondering, is all, because it sounds like there's a lack of formal logic there.
p.s. from the evidence presented, I'd say Beethoven had just as much acumen as Handel after all.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-09-2001).]Comment
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Without reading through my Handel biography I'm rather hazy about his financial situation, although I am aware that he was more than comfortably off. Did he receive financial assistance from patrons? I still stick by my claim that B was not the first composer to attempt to go it alone - although B wasn't formally employed by the Church or Court, he none the less was subsidised by the aristocracy and was not technically financially independent in the way of later composers such as Schumann or Brahms.Originally posted by Serge:
from the evidence presented, I'd say Beethoven had just as much acumen as Handel after all.
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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By coincedence I have recently finished reading Lang's 700+ page biography of Handel, so things are still pretty clear in my head. I would not persue this line of discussion if I did not have some reference to back it up. Handel worked for a time for others, such as the Duke of Chandos, but the vast majority of his works in London (ie his stage music) were not even commissions. He wrote them independently and offered season subscriptions to the gentry who would most likely be his customers, or he would sell tickets from his own house. Later, people would pay 'on the door' at the event itself. Hugely popular works such as Judas Maccabaeus made him a great deal of money from the takings of London's middle class. Its worth buying a recording of this piece just to hear the magnificent fugal overture!Originally posted by Peter:
Without reading through my Handel biography I'm rather hazy about his financial situation, although I am aware that he was more than comfortably off. Did he receive financial assistance from patrons? I still stick by my claim that B was not the first composer to attempt to go it alone - although B wasn't formally employed by the Church or Court, he none the less was subsidised by the aristocracy and was not technically financially independent in the way of later composers such as Schumann or Brahms.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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Well! That's interesting. I did not know the circumstances of his opera business before; something I'm far better versed in now.Originally posted by Rod:
I think you are confusing the stress of business with the stress of destitution. Wealthy Chief Executives can have heart attacks when business problems arise, due to the amount of responsibility involved when things turn sour. Handel was CE of his own opera/oratario company. Handel problems occured pricipally due to the changing socio-demographic nature of the concert goer. Opera was music for the social elite, and H got caught up in the tangled politics surrounding the English royal family who were (and still are) German, one minute he was in favour the next he was out of favour, also H's beloved Italian opera itself, with whom he destroyed all competition, was going out of fashion, but their was no real English equivalent to replace it, so Handel had to unenthusiastically invent a new English language genre, primarily the English Oratario, which proved especially popular amongst the 'pious' middle class once he worked out what their 'weaknesses' were. In such a changeable market I think H did well, especially for a composer of mainly serious music, for his successes always more than made up for his failures financially. H was also very popular as a man, he was a bit of a celebrity. By the time of his death, H had accumulated a princely sum in cash and investments that was self-made, this was particularly impressive at that time for a composer. If you can give me an example of another composer who could have done more in the circumstances I'd be interested to hear it. Beethoven himself could be shrewd financially, but he never took the business side of things as far as Handel. H was almost as much a business man as he was a composer.
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Lang's book is a good read, not too academic in style, cleverly written with many good observations. I've checked H's finacial situation at the time of his death, of the many beneficiaries in his will, the hospice for old composers alone received a donation of £1000 - a super-massive sum in those days (1750's), need I say anything more!?. And when I mentioned he invested in fine art, I'm talking about Rembrandts!Originally posted by Serge:
Well! That's interesting. I did not know the circumstances of his opera business before; something I'm far better versed in now.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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How's the Brook St museum progressing ? Can you imagine a similar situation with B in Bonn? Who was it who said the English were a nation of Philistines?Originally posted by Rod:
I've checked H's finacial situation at the time of his death, of the many beneficiaries in his will, the hospice for old composers alone received a donation of £1000 - a super-massive sum in those days (1750's), need I say anything more!?. And when I mentioned he invested in fine art, I'm talking about Rembrandts!
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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I presume M was not financially in a situation to refuse this commission, though I still do not know how M would have seen this 'morally'.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
I'm sure this was the reason - Mozart actually writes to his fellow mason Michael Puchberg in 1790 'In a week or two I shall be better off - but at present I am in want! The smallest sum would be very welcome' .It was the adaption for Van Swieten of Handel's 'Alexander's feast' that was to make him 'better off in a week or two'.
[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 03-11-2001).]Comment
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Thanks for deleting most of my letter Peter. Your mixing up the 'edit' button with the 'reply' again!Originally posted by Rod:
[b] I presume M was not financially in a situation to refuse this commission, though I still do not know how M would have seen this 'morally'.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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oops!! and I was quite sober!Originally posted by Rod:
Thanks for deleting most of my letter Peter. Your mixing up the 'edit' button with the 'reply' again!
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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I bet it was a deliberate act of sabotage to prevent the free world from discovering what Beethoven thought of your beloved Mozart's adaptions of Handel's works!Originally posted by Peter:
oops!! and I was quite sober!
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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