Copying Beethoven - Ed Harris

[Rutradelusasa]

[quote]Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
[b]

Originally posted by srivele:

Originally posted by Peter:
Very flattering indeed! Actually I live around 60 miles from London, but I am sure there are many more people better qualified than I to act as a consultant, but on the other hand!!!

I'd like to put you in touch with our music director. You can email me at faranj@hotmail.com.

Cheers, SR

SR,
If you send me an email at the address you will find in my profile, I can send you an excellent essay on horns. Yes, valve horns did exist at that time. No, they weren't used in Vienna, even to the time of Richard Strauss (late 19th early 20th century)!!

But Mahler used them a lot, so did Bruckner, Strauss pratically worshiped them (simply read his edition of Berlioz treatise...).
Indeed, Brahms made no use of them whatsoever...

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"Wer ein holdes weib errungen..."

[Rod]

Regading all the matters of instruments above. Yes it is possible that B's music could have been performed with all the various refinements towards the end of his life, and certainly so if he had lived a few years longer. When I saw the Academy of Ancient Music live a few days back, some of the violins had chin rests, but I couldn't say if they were modern version or the original design! The cellos had no pins, but that didn't seem to concern the players. The brass were all valveless.

But ultimately my preference for period instruments is an aesthetic one, of i didn't think they sounded better I wouldn't be concerned with them, but it is logical that the music should sound more appropriate on the instruments it was designed for, especially when today's sound so different.

I doubt if the newly invented valved instruments sounded as refined as todays, but I prefer valveless brass to the modern version. Better still if the horn players pulled their hands out, permanently!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-08-2005).]

[urtextmeister]

I, for one, think Peter would be a great consultant for this project or any movie made about Beethoven.

Peter,

Thanks for straightening me out about the conducting situation for the ninth. One more question:
What about Beethoven not knowing the performance had ended and still waving his arms about? And someone tugging on his sleeve so he would turn and acknowledge the applause? Is this all just popular misconception also?

[Peter]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
I, for one, think Peter would be a great consultant for this project or any movie made about Beethoven.

Peter,

Thanks for straightening me out about the conducting situation for the ninth. One more question:
What about Beethoven not knowing the performance had ended and still waving his arms about? And someone tugging on his sleeve so he would turn and acknowledge the applause? Is this all just popular misconception also?

Well this is well documented so I think it happened - obviously Beethoven was in a world of his own, but it does seem extraordinary! Quite why Beethoven was beating time whilst standing next to Umlauf is also rather a mystery. In fact the whole arrangement is strange by todays standards with the choir positioned in front of the orchestra and a separate conductor Kreutzer directing the soloists from a fortepiano! It is also perhaps no wonder that with only 2 full rehearsals the performance was less than satisfactory despite the great impression made on the audience.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 03-08-2005).]

[srivele]

[QUOTE]
I have at least a partial cast list. The budget did not permit big-name actors, but we do have an excellent ensemble of British character actors in addition to Ed and Diane. You can look them up on IMBD (Internet Movie Data Base). I've seen their audition tapes, and they're all wonderful.

Ed Harris, Beethoven
Diane Kruger, Anna
Ralph Riach, Schlemmer
Nicholas Jones, the Archduke
Joe Anderson, Karl
Phyllida Law, Mother Canisius

Other names to come.

We will probably go with the Bernard Haitink, Concertgebouw recording of the 9th, and the Tacas Quartet recordings of the Late String Quartets (both for quality and licensing availability). Also Ashkenazy's recordings of the Late Piano Sonatas and the Beaux Arts Trio recordings of the Piano Trios. We have taken the suggestions posted here to use selections from the Ghost Trio, the Op. 59 quartets, the Violin Concert and the 5th Piano Concerto, among others. I don't recall offhand whose Emperor and Violin Concerto we are using. Does anybody have any strenuous objections to any of this?

Shooting starts in Budapest April 5th. It's getting pretty exciting now. Our crew is truly first-rate and devoted to the project. Costumes, sets, art direction, makeup and music should be wonderful. Many thanks as ever to all of you on the site.

Cheers, SR

[srivele]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by srivele:
[B][QUOTE]
I have at least a partial cast list. The budget did not permit big-name actors, but we do have an excellent ensemble of British character actors in addition to Ed and Diane. You can look them up on IMBD (Internet Movie Data Base). I've seen their audition tapes, and they're all wonderful.

Sorry - of course I meant IMDB. I forgot to mention that I'm having lunch with Ed Harris on Wednesday just before he leaves for Budapest. I want to give him some last-minute thoughts (I already emailed him the suggestions from you all on Beethoven). Is there anything you think I ought to bring to his attention as he sets off to reincarnate our hero?

[Peter]

[quote]Originally posted by srivele:

I have at least a partial cast list. The budget did not permit big-name actors, but we do have an excellent ensemble of British character actors in addition to Ed and Diane. You can look them up on IMBD (Internet Movie Data Base). I've seen their audition tapes, and they're all wonderful.

Ed Harris, Beethoven
Diane Kruger, Anna
Ralph Riach, Schlemmer
Nicholas Jones, the Archduke
Joe Anderson, Karl
Phyllida Law, Mother Canisius

Other names to come.

We will probably go with the Bernard Haitink, Concertgebouw recording of the 9th, and the Tacas Quartet recordings of the Late String Quartets (both for quality and licensing availability). Also Ashkenazy's recordings of the Late Piano Sonatas and the Beaux Arts Trio recordings of the Piano Trios. We have taken the suggestions posted here to use selections from the Ghost Trio, the Op. 59 quartets, the Violin Concert and the 5th Piano Concerto, among others. I don't recall offhand whose Emperor and Violin Concerto we are using. Does anybody have any strenuous objections to any of this?

Shooting starts in Budapest April 5th. It's getting pretty exciting now. Our crew is truly first-rate and devoted to the project. Costumes, sets, art direction, makeup and music should be wonderful. Many thanks as ever to all of you on the site.

Cheers, SR

It seems you have got a fine cast there, particularly pleased you got Nicholas Jones! Obviously you have your reasons for your music selection, but it seems a particular shame that you have no authentic performances of the sonatas - the sound of the fortepiano is of course so different to the modern piano and it is here perhaps that I'd have most objection, as in the other genres the subtleties of period performance are perhaps less essential for a film. However I'm sure there will be many here puzzled and a little disappointed that after all our discussion on authentic detail you have chosen to go down the modern performance road.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 03-12-2005).]

[Joy]

[quote]Originally posted by srivele:
[b][QUOTE]Originally posted by srivele:

I have at least a partial cast list. The budget did not permit big-name actors, but we do have an excellent ensemble of British character actors in addition to Ed and Diane. You can look them up on IMBD (Internet Movie Data Base). I've seen their audition tapes, and they're all wonderful.

Sorry - of course I meant IMDB. I forgot to mention that I'm having lunch with Ed Harris on Wednesday just before he leaves for Budapest. I want to give him some last-minute thoughts (I already emailed him the suggestions from you all on Beethoven). Is there anything you think I ought to bring to his attention as he sets off to reincarnate our hero?

Sounds like you have a wonderful cast! The music you have selected is top notch as well.
The Tacas Quartet recordings of the Late String Quartets and the Ashkenazy's recordings of the Late Piano Sonatas and the Beaux Arts Trio are excellent performers and recordings. Nothing more to add just good luck, thanks for always informing us of the progress of the film and I hope you continue to keep us posted on this exciting venture.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Chris]

So are you going for an authentic look for the instruments, but modern sound? That would be...strange.

[srivele]

Originally posted by Peter:
Obviously you have your reasons for your music selection, but it seems a particular shame that you have no authentic performances of the sonatas - the sound of the fortepiano is of course so different to the modern piano and it is here perhaps that I'd have most objection, as in the other genres the subtleties of period performance are perhaps less essential for a film. However I'm sure there will be many here puzzled and a little disappointed that after all our discussion on authentic detail you have chosen to go down the modern performance road.

Yes, I realize this. However, there are two considerations. First, we will not be seeing anyone playing the late piano sonatas on screen - they will be used only on the soundtrack, and so we will not be matching the sound of a piano forte with the image of a forte piano. Second, there are no recordings of the sonatas on a forte piano available to us for licensing. I have recordings of the piano sonatas by John Khoury (I think his name is)on forte piano and I know how different they sound. If we were actually watching someone playing the late sonatas on screen on a forte piano, then of course I'd insist on matching the sound. But we will hear them only on the soundtrack, accompanying images unrelated to them. In the instances where we see (briefly) someone actually playing the piano, we will match the sound of the intrument to the sound on the track. We have actually purchased a piano for the film which is almost identical to the one in Beethoven's flat, and I assume it will be used to create the track for the scenes in which it appears. Also, bear in mind that, since this is a film and not a recital, we will hear only brief passages from any of the pieces we are discussing. For example, we have alotted a maximum of nine minutes for the 9th Symphony - an eternity in film time - and perhaps eight or nine minutes total from the Op. 131 string quartet and the Grosse Fugue. (Allowing nine miniutes for those alone, that is eighteen minutes of screen time in a film that will probably run 100 minutes.) Naturally, more playing time than this will be contained in the soundtrack album of the film, which will be created and released separately.

Here I must make a distinction between the the soundtrack of the film and the playback used in the film. The soundtrack is the background music which will be copied from studio mnasters (or, in rare cases, recorded by us) and edited to accompany the actual scenes in the film. The playback refers to the music that the performers are playing within the scenes. The playback, of course, has to match the instruments being played by the actors. The big exception is the 9th Symphony, which will be played on screen by a Hungarian orchestra, but which will be played on the soundtrack by the Concertgebouw. The reason for this is simply quality. We could never reproduce in the Budapest concert hall with the musicians available to us and the recording devices on the set the quality of recording required for the sound track of the film. The same will be true of the on-screen performances of the late quartets, which will be filmed in two salons in Budapest. We will get much better quality by using the Tacas recordings, copied directly from the Decca master tapes and synchronised in the editing to the images of the on-screen players. This is, of course, what they did in the film Amadeus, with great success. Such are the compromises one has to make in film.

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Chris:
So are you going for an authentic look for the instruments, but modern sound? That would be...strange.

The same way I think...

Maybe you could shoot from angles we can't tell the diference between modern and period instruments...

Modern sound on Period looks is awful...



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"Wer ein holdes weib errungen..."

[srivele]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
The same way I think...

Maybe you could shoot from angles we can't tell the diference between modern and period instruments...

Modern sound on Period looks is awful...

We simply don't have money in the budget to bring in a period orchestra or even to hire period instruments. So we will do the best we can with whatever Hungarian orchestra we use. My guess would be that the players will have their own modern instruments. Now, we may be able to 'dress' them to look more period, but I doubt that. In any case, they will probably look like modern instruments, and though we will not hear them in the film, the sound on the soundtrack will be modern. In other words: the 9th as played by the orchestra will not be recorded, but will only serve as cues to the actors who are conducting and reacting to the music. What you will hear in the theater will be the Concertgebouw. Also, this is what you will hear on the soundtrack album, since Decca is giving us a big break on the licensing fee in return for royalties from the album of the film.

Let's look at this problem from a budgetary standpoint. We could bring a period orchestra in from England or Germany, but we'd have to pay transportation lodging, meals and union fees for the players. This would run into hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not a million. So we have to use a local orchestra that does not require lodging, meals or union rates, put them in costumes and shoot them as best we may, as you suggest, to de-emphasize the difference in the instruments.

Another consideration: I'd like ideally to use period instruments and a period sound, and to recreate the fact that the orchestra was probably not up to modern standards and was playing the 9th Symphony for the first time with only two rehearsals. That would be authentic. But what we'd get on the soundtrack would be a version of the 9th that no one would want to listen to, and we're counting on selling the soundtrack album to help offset the costs of the production, especially, the music budget. So we have to compromise, I'm afraid.

[Peter]

Originally posted by srivele:
This is, of course, what they did in the film Amadeus, with great success. Such are the compromises one has to make in film.

Yes this is true and if you only achieve half the success of that film, it will be a great achievement. I do understand your budget problems, I was only disappointed in that our discussions here suggested that you really were going down the HIP road.

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'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

Srivele,
Authentic HIP are such a huge trend now ,are you sure you've exhausted all the avenues to make this happen?Wouldn't HIP draw more interest in the project.Canada's National Library in Ottawa has a fabulous collection of authentic instruments,perhaps you could borrow them.You need to call Pinchas Zukerman.
spacerl

[srivele]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Srivele,
Authentic HIP are such a huge trend now ,are you sure you've exhausted all the avenues to make this happen?Wouldn't HIP draw more interest in the project.Canada's National Library in Ottawa has a fabulous collection of authentic instruments,perhaps you could borrow them.You need to call Pinchas Zukerman.
spacerl

Well, we start shooting in three weeks; I doubt it would be possible. Also, can you imagine the cost of shipping an orchestra's worth of period instruments from Canada to Budapest and back? The insurance alone would break our music budget. sSuch are the realities of independent filmmaking! I'll keep you posted on the solutions we come up with.