Copying Beethoven - Ed Harris

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Joy:

I don't know how far you are going in your movie concerning his death and funeral but have you a copy of Franz Grillparzer's oration composed for Beethoven's funeral and are you planning on having it read? In other words, are you taking the movie all the way to Beethoven's funeral?

Let us not forget the funeral music that was performed. Beethoven's 3 Equali (W.o.O 30) were played and sung alternatively during the funeral ceremony. The music and the texts may be found in the Historic Brass Society Journal Vol 14 (2002) in an excellent article by Howard Weiner "Beethoven's Equali: A New Perspective"

[Peter]

Originally posted by srivele:
Are there any other depictions of his living quarters that anyone is aware of? Do we know what the inside of the Karntnertor Theater looked like? Does anyone know where Schlemmer's office was and what it may have looked like? Any other thoughts regarding art direction would be appreciated. Thanks as always. And Happy New Year.

Here are some actual photos of the Schwarzspanierhaus. The first gives a very good idea of how the square would have looked in Beethoven's time - the last shows the entrance to his apartment. Beethoven's apartment was on the 2nd floor (5th-9th windows immediately to the right of the church).
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/funeral2.jpg
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/sch.jpg
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/schwarzspanierhaus.jpg


Here is a plan of the interior
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/plan.jpg


On entering the ante-room there were some chairs up against the wall, a small dining table, a credenza and above it a picture of the grandfather on the wall.
The large room at the front with 2 windows was the room Beethoven slept in, the room to the right of it was the one he composed in. In the centre of his bedroom were 2 pianos set curve to curve - the Broadwood keyboard faced the door. The other piano was a Graf and the keyboard faced the door of the study - above its keyboard was a sort of trumpet, made in the shape of a bent sound board of thin wood. Against the pillar between the 2 windows was a chest of drawers with, on top of that were several ear trumpets and 2 violins. Above this was a black 4 shelf book case. The bed was on the adjacent wall to the study facing the two windows.
In Beethoven's study he sat some distance from the window facing the large room.


Here is a photo of the Dreifaltigkeitskirche where the funeral service was held
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/dreifaltigkeitskirche.jpg


Here is the entrance to the cemetery at Wahring where Anshutz read Grillparzer's funeral oration
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/wahring1.jpg

and a picture of the original tomb:
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/wahring3.jpg

This page should give you some useful information on the Vienna of the day - dress styles, typical house interiors etc..
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/viennese.html

As for the theatre interior perhaps the Burgtheater will serve as an idea for this?

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 12-29-2004).]

[Hermit Thrush]

I have a book with fine photos of the interiors of Beethoven's rooms in the Schwarzspanierhaus, including 2 of the familiar "study" which was really his bedroom (one includes a plain view of the spot his bed was in this room) and also where he had the 2 pianos. There is also a photo of his real study, diningroom, and others. These are really very moving to see----one can easily picture him here, in his daily life during his last years.

The name of the book is Das Schwarzspanierhaus, Beethovens Letzte Wohnstatte (Beethoven's Last Dwelling-place), by Peter Potschner. It was published in 1970 and is in German. It's not too hard to find on used book websites-----that's how I got it.

I think these pictures would be extremely helpful in accurately re-creating his last living quarters.


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"You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead"

[Joy]

Originally posted by srivele:
when he is huddled under the copper resonating hood. I have a gravure showing the inside of Beethoven's flat which I will give to the art director. Are there any other depictions of his living quarters that anyone is aware of? would be appreciated. Thanks as always. And Happy New Year.

There's a good picture of his room including his piano and various other items here:
http://ludwig0van0beethoven.tripod.com/gallery2g.html

Scroll down to the 16th picture. Other good pictures too that might be a help to you.

Don't know about the copper resonating hood though? Maybe others can help on that point.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[urtextmeister]

I can't begin to say how much I respect you for searching out these details.

There might not be that many people who will appreciate the historical accuracy, but I think most people can "sense" when a subject is taken seriously and when pains have been taking to portray that subject with some degree of realism.

[srivele]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:

I can't begin to say how much I respect you for searching out these details.

There might not be that many people who will appreciate the historical accuracy, but I think most people can "sense" when a subject is taken seriously and when pains have been taking to portray that subject with some degree of realism.

Thanks to you all for the input. It is true that an audience can tell when something has been properly researched and presented, even if they don't know the details. The look of the film just seems right; it is a matter of feeling rather than information for most people, and you dare not violate that sense, particularly in a historical film. Of course, you also just want to get it right as a matter of professionalism, and it's always gratifying when people who know a subject write to you after seeing the film that you did well. However, there is, too, always the restriction of budget and the problem of time. Much as we would like, say, to shoot at the actual Beethoven house in Vienna, it would simply be too costly to send the entire cast and crew there for one or two days. So, working with the images you've sent, we'll try to find a locale in Budapest that resembles it, and 'dress' it to look like the Black Spaniard's house.
Rather than try to copy or forward all the references you've suggested, I think I will just tell the director and art director to go to this site and use the links you have sent.
Does anyone have any idea where Schlemmer's ofiice was and what it looked like? It is the first set in the film and we'd like to get it right if we can.
Ed and the director are listening to the Beethoven's deafness CD that was suggested on the site, and that I ordered from the Beethoven House in Bonn; really very useful, especially the liner notes by the doctor who has led the research.
Now a general question. As Ed prepares for the role, I'd be interested to know what thoughts members have on how he should conceive of the character of Beethoven. If you had actually met him, how would you sum up his character, spirit, demeanor, in one or two sentences? I have lived with Beethoven as a person in my life for forty years, and I have formed defnite impressions of him as a human being. These I have conveyed to Ed. But you, too, have made him an important part of your lives and must have, likewise, formed impresions of what he must have been like to know. I'll gladly print your impressions out and pass them on to Ed.
Again, thanks for all the help, and Happy New Year to you all.

[Rutradelusasa]

Maybe Ed could join the forum and ask us those particular questions...
Just a thought

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"Wer ein holdes weib errungen..."

[Amalie]

Originally posted by srivele:
Thanks to you all for the input. It is true that an audience can tell when something has been properly researched and presented, even if they don't know the details. The look of the film just seems right; it is a matter of feeling rather than information for most people, and you dare not violate that sense, particularly in a historical film. Of course, you also just want to get it right as a matter of professionalism, and it's always gratifying when people who know a subject write to you after seeing the film that you did well. However, there is, too, always the restriction of budget and the problem of time. Much as we would like, say, to shoot at the actual Beethoven house in Vienna, it would simply be too costly to send the entire cast and crew there for one or two days. So, working with the images you've sent, we'll try to find a locale in Budapest that resembles it, and 'dress' it to look like the Black Spaniard's house.
Rather than try to copy or forward all the references you've suggested, I think I will just tell the director and art director to go to this site and use the links you have sent.
Does anyone have any idea where Schlemmer's ofiice was and what it looked like? It is the first set in the film and we'd like to get it right if we can.
Ed and the director are listening to the Beethoven's deafness CD that was suggested on the site, and that I ordered from the Beethoven House in Bonn; really very useful, especially the liner notes by the doctor who has led the research.
Now a general question. As Ed prepares for the role, I'd be interested to know what thoughts members have on how he should conceive of the character of Beethoven. If you had actually met him, how would you sum up his character, spirit, demeanor, in one or two sentences? I have lived with Beethoven as a person in my life for forty years, and I have formed defnite impressions of him as a human being. These I have conveyed to Ed. But you, too, have made him an important part of your lives and must have, likewise, formed impresions of what he must have been like to know. I'll gladly print your impressions out and pass them on to Ed.
Again, thanks for all the help, and Happy New Year to you all.

A very happy New Year to all on the site.

I am very pleased to learn that the CD I recommended about Beethoven's deafness, 'Beethoven's Ohr gehurt' proved useful. .
Regarding Beethoven's character, demeanour etc. I suppose the first thing anyone would say is that it probably changed a bit over the years owing to his deafness which by its nature forced a man that was actually quite gregarious by nature, into himself. This is hinted at in the Heiligenstadt Testament.
I think he had a natural bluff good humour which actually in may ways concealed a man of profound tenderness, passion and love.
Yes, he was a bit of a practical joker, but if this misfired he was abject with contrition and begged forgiveness.
I think he really loved human company. But he was to state the obvious, a transcendent genius who was almost completely comsumed by his art and just by its very demanding nature he couldn't really afford to spend too long with people because these compositions were always in his head or comming to him, and so he probably came across as being a bit curt with people at times becaue his art was demanding his attention.
There is a fantastic and very moving story of Beethoven when he had gone deaf, walking down the street in his blue frock coat with one pocket stuffed full of musical scores that he was working on, and the other pocket stuffed with his 'Gesprachbuch' and a thick pencil and as people came up to him to greet him he immediately got his book out and asked them to write down what they were saying. His nephew Karl walked apart from uncle Ludwig being embarassed by his gesticulations as he tried to communicate.

I don't think Beethoven spurned human society, but deafness and his art meant that he was thrown back onto his own company. Listening to the Ninth Symphony, I often get the feeling that Beethoven understood the purpose of life better than almost anyone who ever lived .
The feeling I get from the ninth is pure love and joy.


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~ Courage, so it be righteous, will gain all things ~

[Hermit Thrush]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:

It would be a fascinating project to try surmise what Beethoven would have looked like playing the piano. Would he have looked noble and aristocratic like Rubinstein (Artur) or all scrunched up like Gould? Painful emotion in his face or a placid exterior? Did he sit low or high?

[/B]

There is a description of Beethoven's appearance and demeanor at the piano by a most reliable source, Carl Czerny:

"His bearing while playing was perfectly quiet, noble and beautiful, without the slightest grimace---but bent forward low, as his deafness increased."



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"You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead"

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Hermit Thrush:
There is a description of Beethoven's appearance and demeanor at the piano by a most reliable source, Carl Czerny:

"His bearing while playing was perfectly quiet, noble and beautiful, without the slightest grimace---but bent forward low, as his deafness increased."

In this description he looks just like those very known pictures of Brahms at the piano, but Brahms bent high, away from the piano.


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"Wer ein holdes weib errungen..."

[Amalie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hermit Thrush:
[B] There is a description of Beethoven's appearance and demeanor at the piano by a most reliable source, Carl Czerny:

"His bearing while playing was perfectly quiet, noble and beautiful, without the slightest grimace---but bent forward low, as his deafness increased."

A beautiful, touching remaniscence Hermit.




As part of Beethoven's daily routine, his breakfast time was between 7:30 and 8:00, and although he sometimes took hot chocolate when prescribed by his doctors, Beethoven usually drank coffee with bread rolls. Meticulous in its preparation, especially in the company of friends, he would count out 60 beans to a cup. The crushed beans were steamed in a percolator.
After breakfast (fruhstuck), he would work at his desk till dinner unless was to receive visitors, or unless, as was not unusual, he decided to take a morning walk. He disliked being disturbed at work and sometimes instructed his servants not admit visitors when he was busy. Betweeen 11:30 and 13:00, it was fashionable for ladies of the middle class to promenade along the city walls of the Bastei.


Bathing and Shaving.

Like Richard Wagner, Beethoven believed in tghe invigorating power of cold water, so he submitted himself to frequent ablutions. While composing, when his head felt hot, he was in the habit of going to the washbasin to cool himself with douches of several jugs of water, often continuing to hum or roar as he paced the floor. When sometimes the overflow into the floor leaked through to the apartment below, the hostile complaints from his neighbour obliged his landlord to evict him.
His clumsy, awkward, ungracious movements led to frequent accidents and breakages, so that, for example, he often knocked his inkwell into the piano breside his writing desk. He frequently cut himself when shaving, and he was unable to dance in time with the music. Furthermore he had difficulty in cutting the quills of his pens, or sharpening pencils with his awkward thick fingers, so that he preferred to write with thick pencils, like those used by carpenters.



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~ Courage, so it be righteous, will gain all things ~

[Joy]

Well, Beethoven's been a part of my life for 40 years too! Here's are some of my impressions of him. I think if you were to meet him you would find he would be like two sides of a coin. On one side he was an angry, frustrated, irascible, sickly man. On the other side he could be tender, genuine, sincere, sensitive, and a man who had a very good sense of humour particularly when it came to puns and practical jokes. He did like a good laugh. He was an advid reader of all categories in literature. He liked to make personal notes on the margins of the books. Reading was of the greatest importance to him.
He was untidy in dress, but during the period of the composition of the Ninth Symphony he was "so elegantly dressed in a blue tailcoat with yellow buttons, impeccably white trousers and waistcoat and with a new beaver hat as usual worn on the back of his head."
He was fond of dancing. Ries tells us, though, "that he never really learned to keep in step".
As for his keyboard playing, Czerny reports that Beethoven's playing up to about 1800, was "masterly quiet, noble, and beautiful, without any grimaces." By 1814, Schindler noted that the "elasticity of Beethoven's finger's vanished in proportion to the decrease in his hearing. More and more the Master asked for louder instruments. Beethoven by that time was a creative musician, no longer a virtuoso."

These are just several adjectives (and stories)with which I would describe our lovable (and sometimes difficult) Beethoven.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Chris]

<font color="Red">I'm sorry, but due to the outage, some of this thread was lost (we've had bad luck with this one ). Fortunately, I had the text of the lost messages saved. What follows are the lost messages.</font>

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 01-23-2005).]

[Chris]

<font color="Red">Posted by srivele on 01-06-2005 08:16 AM</font>

Just wanted to let you know that I have grouped all your links and suggestions together into a single file that I will forward to the director and the art director. Rehearsals begin January 15; filming begins in Budapest April 15. I'll keep you posted. This site has become an important part of the project, and I cannot tell you how much I appreciate all the ideas and references.

Cheers, SR

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 01-23-2005).]

[Chris]

<font color="Red">Posted by Hofrat on 01-06-2005 09:08 AM</font>

Originally posted by srivele:
Just wanted to let you know that I have grouped all your links and suggestions together into a single file that I will forward to the director and the art director. Rehearsals begin January 15; filming begins in Budapest April 15. I'll keep you posted. This site has become an important part of the project, and I cannot tell you how much I appreciate all the ideas and references.

Cheers, SR

If this film is done in Budapest, then there are 2 must sites for you to film. The first, The Castle Hill Theater where Beethoven performed on 7 May 1800 with the horn player Punto. The second, Marie Erdody's home on Castle Hill where Beethoven lodged that night. Her home is now a music museum and houses Beethoven's Broadwood piano.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 01-23-2005).]