Copying Beethoven - Ed Harris

[Bessy]

This is a good site from the National Music Museum. It may be of some help.
http://www.usd.edu/smm/Exhibitions/B...divaribow.html

[Bessy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bessy:
[B]This is a good site from the National Music Museum. It may be of some help.
http://www.usd.edu/smm/Exhibitions/B...divaribow.html

Help with the research of the instruments, that is.

[Bessy]

Also, there is another helpful site which lists the specific instruments used for Beethoven's compositions. Be sure to scroll down to the bottom of the page. http://www.carolinaclassical.com/art...beethoven.html

[urtextmeister]

I checked out out the link above and read that the "real" conductor at the 9th premiere was hidden from Beethoven(?) I'm not quite sure how this was possible. Wouldn't have Ludwig noticed that all eyes were not on him but some guy in the balcony?
Furthermore, I don't understand how Beethoven could be conducting so far behind the orchestra. If nothing else, he should have been able to see what instruments were playing and what type of of passage it was.

Did he ever find out about this little deception? I would think he would be a trifle upset to find out they were only humoring him.

[Peter]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
I checked out out the link above and read that the "real" conductor at the 9th premiere was hidden from Beethoven(?)

This isn't true - Beethoven did not conduct the 9th and was fully aware of Michael Umlauf's presence on the stage!

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

[quote]Originally posted by srivele:
[b]

Originally posted by srivele:


Okay, I'm going to pose the question that is currently bedevilling the production:

Exactly how were the instruments of the orchestra of 1824 different from those of today's symphony orchestra? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks, SR

With regards to pitch A=430 would be nearer the mark than the modern 440. String instruments used gut strings and though the modern tourte bow was invented in the 1780's, it wasn't standard practice till much later - Paganini still used the old transitional style bow in the 1830's. Vibrato would have been used much less than is the case today. The woodwind were made of wood! The brass instruments did not have valves.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
With regards to pitch A=430 would be nearer the mark than the modern 440. String instruments used gut strings and though the modern tourte bow was invented in the 1780's, it wasn't standard practice till much later - Paganini still used the old transitional style bow in the 1830's. Vibrato would have been used much less than is the case today. The woodwind were made of wood! The brass instruments did not have valves.

And the violins and violas should not have chin rests, nor the cellos resting pins.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-06-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
And the violins and violas should not have chin rests, nor the cellos resting pins.

Certainly not before the 1820's, but Louis Spohr is credited with inventing the chin rest around 1820, so maybe they were in use for the first performance of the 9th?

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'Man know thyself'

[Bessy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:
[b] This isn't true - Beethoven did not conduct the 9th and was fully aware of Michael Umlauf's presence on the stage!

How do you know that?




[This message has been edited by Bessy (edited 03-06-2005).]

[srivele]

Originally posted by Peter:
With regards to pitch A=430 would be nearer the mark than the modern 440. String instruments used gut strings and though the modern tourte bow was invented in the 1780's, it wasn't standard practice till much later - Paganini still used the old transitional style bow in the 1830's. Vibrato would have been used much less than is the case today. The woodwind were made of wood! The brass instruments did not have valves.

Thank you for the response: we really would like to get all this right if we can. (I stress 'if we can', with budgetary restrictions always in mind.)

I visited the Museum of Music web site forwarded to me by a member, and it seems to confirm my suspicion that the brass did have valves by 1824. Does anyone know for certain? Or more specifically: did the orchestra that permiered the 9th have valved brass? What did the bows actually look like, if they were neither the arc of the earlier era nor the modern form? And if the cellos had no end pins, what did they rest on? Surely not the knees. I believe that playing technique was quie different (vibrato being used less as you say) and that gut strings were certainly used. Our music supervisor advises us that the orchestra of 1824 probably tuned to A=434, which comports with what you say. I have heard comparative recordings of the second movement of the 9th played at tuning A=440 and A=434, and the latter strikes me as having a darker, somewhat coarser sound. We are considering using the Christopher Hogwood, Academy of Ancient Music recording of the 9th for the soundtrack. What do you think?
Also, I received an email from the production designer posing the very same question I have posed here a number of times: Where did Schlemmer live and what did his digs look like? Does anyone know?

Thanks, SR

[Peter]

[quote]Originally posted by Bessy:
[b]

Originally posted by Peter:
This isn't true - Beethoven did not conduct the 9th and was fully aware of Michael Umlauf's presence on the stage!

How do you know that?

[This message has been edited by Bessy (edited 03-06-2005).]

Firstly because Beethoven was deaf not blind. Secondly because the announcement for the two concerts stated that Herr Kapellmeister Umlauf will conduct the whole performance. Thirdly the diary of Rosenbaum states :"Friday 7th May 1824...at the K.Th. Van Beethoven's concert. Umlauf conducting."
Finally Beethoven himself requested that Umlauf should conduct and Schuppanzigh should lead, however a problem arose because at the original venue chosen (the Theater an der Wien) the conductor was Seyfried and Clement was the leader.

Beethoven assisted with the direction and apparently gesticulated wildly, but he was fully aware the orchestra were following Umlauf - he had no wish to repeat his humiliating experience of attempting to conduct at the 1822 Fidelio revival rehearsals.

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'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

Originally posted by srivele:
Thank you for the response: we really would like to get all this right if we can. (I stress 'if we can', with budgetary restrictions always in mind.)

I visited the Museum of Music web site forwarded to me by a member, and it seems to confirm my suspicion that the brass did have valves by 1824. Does anyone know for certain? Or more specifically: did the orchestra that permiered the 9th have valved brass? What did the bows actually look like, if they were neither the arc of the earlier era nor the modern form? And if the cellos had no end pins, what did they rest on? Surely not the knees. I believe that playing technique was quie different (vibrato being used less as you say) and that gut strings were certainly used. Our music supervisor advises us that the orchestra of 1824 probably tuned to A=434, which comports with what you say. I have heard comparative recordings of the second movement of the 9th played at tuning A=440 and A=434, and the latter strikes me as having a darker, somewhat coarser sound. We are considering using the Christopher Hogwood, Academy of Ancient Music recording of the 9th for the soundtrack. What do you think?
Also, I received an email from the production designer posing the very same question I have posed here a number of times: Where did Schlemmer live and what did his digs look like? Does anyone know?

Thanks, SR

"Valves are mentioned in German documents between 1815 and 1817 as the invention of Heirnrich Stozel who ,with Friedrich Bluhmel,took out a patent in 1818 relating to improvements to the horn".This from The Larousse Encyclopedia of Music.

Wasn't the cello resting on your calves before the resting pin. It was an awkward ballancing act trying to hold it and play at the same time.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
With regards to pitch A=430 would be nearer the mark than the modern 440. String instruments used gut strings and though the modern tourte bow was invented in the 1780's, it wasn't standard practice till much later - Paganini still used the old transitional style bow in the 1830's. Vibrato would have been used much less than is the case today. The woodwind were made of wood! The brass instruments did not have valves.

What about scale tuning? I believe the tuning of steps in the major/minor scales were different than they are now.

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by srivele:
We are considering using the Christopher Hogwood, Academy of Ancient Music recording of the 9th for the soundtrack. What do you think?

Period performances all have a problem with the first movement of the 9th - only Toscanini achieved Beethoven's tempi in this movement convincingly because he was flexible and willing to think about tempo, and modifications of tempo, within the larger context of what the music actually means. However for this production you obviously have to go with period performance and personaly I'd go with Franz Bruggen or the Hanover Band (Roy Goodman).



Also, I received an email from the production designer posing the very same question I have posed here a number of times: Where did Schlemmer live and what did his digs look like? Does anyone know?

Thanks, SR

Well I haven't come across any info of use to you on this. Beethoven's few notes to Schlemmer reveal no address. I don't think this is of great importance though as long as the building and interior are authentic for the time. Perhaps you could try asking the Beethovenhaus about this?

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 03-07-2005).]

[Bessy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Firstly because Beethoven was deaf not blind. Secondly because the announcement for the two concerts stated that Herr Kapellmeister Umlauf will conduct the whole performance. Thirdly the diary of Rosenbaum states :"Friday 7th May 1824...at the K.Th. Van Beethoven's concert. Umlauf conducting."
Finally Beethoven himself requested that Umlauf should conduct and Schuppanzigh should lead, however a problem arose because at the original venue chosen (the Theater an der Wien) the conductor was Seyfried and Clement was the leader.

Beethoven assisted with the direction and apparently gesticulated wildly, but he was fully aware the orchestra were following Umlauf - he had no wish to repeat his humiliating experience of attempting to conduct at the 1822 Fidelio revival rehearsals.

I was under the impression that the diaries written by Rosenbaum were fictional.