Authentic page mp3s - "Harp" quartet Op.74

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
Niether. I believe he was composing for the instruments he had available, and did so quite successfully. Just because something came along in the future, of which he could not have been aware, that enhances his muic to my ear (which does not equate to objectively better), it does not mean in any way that he was less successful in composing for the instruments of his day than other composers. If it means anything, and I don't think it has to, it means that his music was able expand to work well on instruments that came later, while other composers' music was not.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 04-21-2005).]

Actually you have almost answered what would have been my option 'C' had I not deleted it because it seemed too easy and evasive an option - ie, that it is merely coincidence that the music sounds better on the later instruments!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Actually you have almost answered what would have been my option 'C' had I not deleted it because it seemed too easy and evasive an option - ie, that it is merely coincidence that the music sounds better on the later instruments!

How about option D that the music sounds different on modern instruments and there is no harm in having both approaches since there is no evidence that Beethoven would have disapproved - indeed as late as 1826 there is evidence to the contrary. We also have the fact that the generation that followed him had the experience of playing fortepianos as well as the modern instrument and I don't recall any of them lamenting the changes made.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
How about option D that the music sounds different on modern instruments and there is no harm in having both approaches since there is no evidence that Beethoven would have disapproved - indeed as late as 1826 there is evidence to the contrary. We also have the fact that the generation that followed him had the experience of playing fortepianos as well as the modern instrument and I don't recall any of them lamenting the changes made.

Well there were developments during B's own life time. Develpments per se are not necessarily a bad thing, my point is that the nature of the instruments we have today have gone way beyond what is good for the music of the eary 1800's, but fine for the likes of Rachmaninov and ..er.. Jazz!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-22-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well there were developments during B's own life time. Develpments per se are not necessarily a bad thing, my point is that the nature of the instruments we have today have gone way beyond what is good for the music of the eary 1800's, but fine for the likes of Rachmaninov and ..er.. Jazz!

Well the developments you disapprove of were all in place long before Rachmaninov and Jazz. Yes during Beethoven's lifetime the fortepiano probably had more patents filed than after - I don't think he ever objected or longed for the days of a 1790's Walter. To my mind, far more important than playing on a so-called 'authentic' instrument is the quality of the performance itself - in this regard fine as the Turner quartet's interpretation is, it isn't a match for the Italiano, Talich or Vegh.

A modern piano is more than able to do justice to Beethoven's music and I cannot imagine that Beethoven would have had any objections to his sonatas being played on one - indeed he would probably have been delighted that they were still being played 200 years later!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well the developments you disapprove of were all in place long before Rachmaninov and Jazz. Yes during Beethoven's lifetime the fortepiano probably had more patents filed than after - I don't think he ever objected or longed for the days of a 1790's Walter. To my mind, far more important than playing on a so-called 'authentic' instrument is the quality of the performance itself - in this regard fine as the Turner quartet's interpretation is, it isn't a match for the Italiano, Talich or Vegh.

A modern piano is more than able to do justice to Beethoven's music and I cannot imagine that Beethoven would have had any objections to his sonatas being played on one - indeed he would probably have been delighted that they were still being played 200 years later!

Well gut strings were still in use during the early 20th Century and the later 19th Century pianos I've heard don't quite sound like todays either.

Infact I read that at one time orchestral Double Bass players were often contractually obliged to use gut as opposed to metal stringed instruments as the former made more noise than the latter!

I'm sure Beethoven would not have minded his music being played today on whatever was available, but I am certain if he had had access to such instruments he would have composed much different music than he did.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'm sure Beethoven would not have minded his music being played today on whatever was available, but I am certain if he had had access to such instruments he would have composed much different music than he did.

This is certainly true, but I don't think the argument can be turned the other way to say that one cannot perform music written for the older instruments on modern ones. There is no doubt that Beethoven would not have written the early sonatas in quite the same way had he had a piano of the 1820's - he didn't feel the need to revise them or suggest that they were only suitable for intruments from the 1790's.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
This is certainly true, but I don't think the argument can be turned the other way to say that one cannot perform music written for the older instruments on modern ones. There is no doubt that Beethoven would not have written the early sonatas in quite the same way had he had a piano of the 1820's - he didn't feel the need to revise them or suggest that they were only suitable for intruments from the 1790's.

Well apart from the keyboard compass and the use of foot pedals the fundamental characteristics of the 1790s Walter and the 1820s Graf are much the same, whereas the modern Steinway is a much different beast. The Viennese action is the key element.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
Actually you have almost answered what would have been my option 'C' had I not deleted it because it seemed too easy and evasive an option - ie, that it is merely coincidence that the music sounds better on the later instruments!

Ha ha! Perhaps easy and evasive, but you cannot deny that had I chosen A or B, I would have looked like a fool and you would have wasted no time in pointing it out. Thanks, in part at least, to the way you worded them; if I choose option A I am making Beethoven out to be incapable of working with the tools available to him, and if I choose option B, I am making him out to be an inadequate composer. You are a crafty one, Mr. Corkin!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
Ha ha! Perhaps easy and evasive, but you cannot deny that had I chosen A or B, I would have looked like a fool and you would have wasted no time in pointing it out. Thanks, in part at least, to the way you worded them; if I choose option A I am making Beethoven out to be incapable of working with the tools available to him, and if I choose option B, I am making him out to be an inadequate composer. You are a crafty one, Mr. Corkin!

Yes for sure i was offering you the firing squad or the noose, but more seriously I have difficulty in perceiving any opinion that states the typical post WWII view of Beethoven performance as being the ideal (over a more historically informed manner) that does not at least latently demean the composer, even if the holders of those opinions are not consciously aware of it.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-22-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well apart from the keyboard compass and the use of foot pedals the fundamental characteristics of the 1790s Walter and the 1820s Graf are much the same, whereas the modern Steinway is a much different beast. The Viennese action is the key element.

Well I can give you examples of passages from the earlier sonatas such as Op.31/2 1st mov where the writing and effect would have been quite different with a bigger compass. The Steinway is not the only modern instrument in use today, indeed there is a difference even between a Hamburg and a New York Steinway. Regarding actions, Beethoven was at least prepared to try others - I daresay he would have been delighted with a modern Renner action on one of his pianos.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 04-22-2005).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I can give you examples of passages from the earlier sonatas such as Op.31/2 1st mov where the writing and effect would have been quite different with a bigger compass. The Steinway is not the only modern instrument in use today, indeed there is a difference even between a Hamburg and a New York Steinway. Regarding actions, Beethoven was at least prepared to try others - I daresay he would have been delighted with a modern Renner action on one of his pianos.

I was only mentioning the expanded keyboard as a physical issue of the piano between the 1790s and 1820s. I don't get your point about op31/2 with regard to any of my statements on this matter!

Regarding the piano actions you are well aware that Beethoven found his 'English' actioned Erard unplayable and I am sure this was one of the issues that tarnished his initial enthusiasm for his Broadwood - and also remember both of these were gifts, he did not feel the need to go shopping around Europe in search of a superior form of action to that found locally.

I mention the Steinway because it is the piano that seems to be played at every concert venue I have ever attended. I've heard other models but when you compare them to even a very late 'fortepiano', the huge Austrian Streicher I heard live from 1854, there is a vast difference sonically. The aesthetic ideal of today is obviously much different from those times.

I mentioned the action and this is the primary issue but as we have discussed often before the tuning, pitch and hammer coverings are other important issues to be considered that have altered greatly over time.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I was only mentioning the expanded keyboard as a physical issue of the piano between the 1790s and 1820s. I don't get your point about op31/2 with regard to any of my statements on this matter!

Regarding the piano actions you are well aware that Beethoven found his 'English' actioned Erard unplayable and I am sure this was one of the issues that tarnished his initial enthusiasm for his Broadwood - and also remember both of these were gifts, he did not feel the need to go shopping around Europe in search of a superior form of action to that found locally.

I mention the Steinway because it is the piano that seems to be played at every concert venue I have ever attended. I've heard other models but when you compare them to even a very late 'fortepiano', the huge Austrian Streicher I heard live from 1854, there is a vast difference sonically. The aesthetic ideal of today is obviously much different from those times.

I mentioned the action and this is the primary issue but as we have discussed often before the tuning, pitch and hammer coverings are other important issues to be considered that have altered greatly over time.

You made the point that had Beethoven had a modern instrument his piano writing would have been different and I agree with you. However you wrote this in the context of justifying not using modern instruments.

My point about Op.31/2 is that had he had a piano of the 1820s the passage that occurs in the recapitulation of the 1st movt with those wonderful dissonaces wouldn't have been written, he would simply have continued the upper voice in octaves as he did in the exposition. However he did not rewrite this passage when a piano with greater compass became available - he saw no need to rewrite his earlier works to take account of the many developments in fortepiano design that happened during his lifetime, it simply wasn't an issue for him and he was quite happy for them to be performed on later instruments.

We know that Beethoven wasn't satisfied with the Broadwood, so why do HIP performances take place on this restored instrument that he disliked? The whole argument is a late 20th century phenomenon that has purely historical and academic interest. Beethoven wouldn't have cared two hoots about performing Bach or Mozart on an 1820's Graf nor I daresay had he lived long enough a Steinway.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

My point about Op.31/2 is that had he had a piano of the 1820s the passage that occurs in the recapitulation of the 1st movt with those wonderful dissonaces wouldn't have been written, he would simply have continued the upper voice in octaves as he did in the exposition. However he did not rewrite this passage when a piano with greater compass became available - he saw no need to rewrite his earlier works to take account of the many developments in fortepiano design that happened during his lifetime, it simply wasn't an issue for him and he was quite happy for them to be performed on later instruments.

We know that Beethoven wasn't satisfied with the Broadwood, so why do HIP performances take place on this restored instrument that he disliked? The whole argument is a late 20th century phenomenon that has purely historical and academic interest. Beethoven wouldn't have cared two hoots about performing Bach or Mozart on an 1820's Graf nor I daresay had he lived long enough a Steinway.

Well concerning op31 again I don't know why you are keep following this line of argument. The keyboard compass in relation to B's compositional process is not an issue i am arguing about.

Concerning the Broadwood I personally would have preferred Tan to have played the Graf, if I see a CD with an English fortepiano I no longer purchase them as the are not really suited to the music so well. The vast majority of Beethoven fp recordings use Viennese actioned instruments

You will recall me mentioning the TV programme concerning the Broadwood restoration and Tan's recording, well even after the restoration he did have extreme difficulty getting the instrument to perform to a satisfactory degree and this is apparent on some of the recordigns on the CD. He struggles so much with B's Fantasia that I don't think it worthy of the authentic page.

Beethoven did care enough about the various instruments on offer as we have many accounts of his discussions on the matter.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-26-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Beethoven did care enough about the various instruments on offer as we have many accounts of his discussions on the matter.

Well yes and he was not happy with most - one wonders why he didn't just stick with the Viennese action pianos which he favoured? However I'm sure his preferences were from a performer's point of view rather than a composers and we have to remember that he can hardly be considered a fair judge of the tone qualities of these instruments, certainly not from 1814 onwards.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well yes and he was not happy with most - one wonders why he didn't just stick with the Viennese action pianos which he favoured? ...

On the other hand Czerny commented with amazement concerning one particular piano that Beethoven was content to play but C thought was not worthy of him!

In any case this fussiness over pianos is not unique to Beethoven, later concert pianists were if anything much more particular than Beethoven and they had their hands on much more substantial instruments.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin