Why so late?!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Uniqor:
I see old topics, I see old names...

I'll just concentrate on the late work: for me, many of them sound radiculas. I have no intention od telling myself that I'm totally wrong, nor forcing myself to read a stack of books which would "enlight" me. When beethoven knocked so hard on those disscordant chords out of the middle of a silence in his last sonata, I almost spilled my coffee out... So really, life is to short to become "musically intellegent" - 1. because there are so many other work which you like the very first time you listen, and when you listen, you just listen; 2. because when intellegent comes to a certain degree, it's just abtrusive, which is really, another word for dumb. Again, I don't care which professer reckons the Hammerklavier is the "ultimate", "miracle" or "fantastick", I stick to the pleasure of the most - the beauty of Fur Elise. I consider living a qualitier life when enjoying Fur Elise, than busting my head, working off my sweat, trying to appreiciate the 50 minutes long Hammerklavier in full.

Peace...

Well to many people of Beethoven's time his late work represented a decline and sounded ridiculous, so you are not alone. However there are many others like myself who regard the late works not only as Beethoven's best, but some of the finest music ever created. Each to their own.

Music that doesn't necessarily appeal instantly, with perserverance can offer greater rewards. I'm not certain if it was Cherubini, but an eminent musician of the time for years regarded Beethoven's 5th as dreadful, only to say how wrong he had been in later years.

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Uniqor:
I see old topics, I see old names...

I'll just concentrate on the late work: for me, many of them sound radiculas. I have no intention od telling myself that I'm totally wrong, nor forcing myself to read a stack of books which would "enlight" me. When beethoven knocked so hard on those disscordant chords out of the middle of a silence in his last sonata, I almost spilled my coffee out... So really, life is to short to become "musically intellegent" - 1. because there are so many other work which you like the very first time you listen, and when you listen, you just listen; 2. because when intellegent comes to a certain degree, it's just abtrusive, which is really, another word for dumb. Again, I don't care which professer reckons the Hammerklavier is the "ultimate", "miracle" or "fantastick", I stick to the pleasure of the most - the beauty of Fur Elise. I consider living a qualitier life when enjoying Fur Elise, than busting my head, working off my sweat, trying to appreiciate the 50 minutes long Hammerklavier in full.

Peace...

There are, also, many other little treasures among his bagatelles and other lesser known works that do not require "intellectualization" to enjoy. But one has to search to find--some of the best things in life are the ones we labor most for.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Uniqor:
Do people have to discredit the stuff that they don't like in order to tell themselves that thier own stuff is likable?

Really? Out of somebody's cell? See the magic of Beethoven's little piece - even the scumbags love it!

[This message has been edited by Uniqor (edited 03-02-2005).]

My cell-phone has Fur Elise and a substantial portion of the finale of the 'Moonlight' sonata built-in. I composed on the phone the first movement of the 5th Symphony, a good arrangement if i do say so myself.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Uniqor:
I see old topics, I see old names...

I'll just concentrate on the late work: for me, many of them sound radiculas. I have no intention od telling myself that I'm totally wrong, nor forcing myself to read a stack of books which would "enlight" me. When beethoven knocked so hard on those disscordant chords out of the middle of a silence in his last sonata, I almost spilled my coffee out... So really, life is to short to become "musically intellegent" - 1. because there are so many other work which you like the very first time you listen, and when you listen, you just listen; 2. because when intellegent comes to a certain degree, it's just abtrusive, which is really, another word for dumb. Again, I don't care which professer reckons the Hammerklavier is the "ultimate", "miracle" or "fantastick", I stick to the pleasure of the most - the beauty of Fur Elise. I consider living a qualitier life when enjoying Fur Elise, than busting my head, working off my sweat, trying to appreiciate the 50 minutes long Hammerklavier in full.

Peace...

Uniq,
Well, I certainly don't disagree with you. While I have tremendous respect for B's late works, and I DO consider it the finest music ever written, I can in no way disparage the early works, because all my favorites fall in the first 100 opus numbers, and in many that have no opus numbers (Like Für Elise). I think it comes down to why you are wanting to listen to the music, and at least 75% of the time I want to listen in order to be entertained, and have lovely melodies around me and just make my life seem a little better than it was before. And the Op 7 & 13 sonatas, and the Op 9 String Trios, and Moonlight Sonata and the Violin Sonatas Op 23 & 24 and many others do exactly that.
I also agree with you that people are too comparative. To like and respect one thing does not make something else worse. Comparing things, especially music, which has such an individual appeal, is ludicrous on the face of it. That is why I can easily say I like Mozart, and Beethoven and Haydn and dozens of others, because I don't have to waste time and brain power reaching the ridiculous conclusion that one is superior to the others, they are each different and stand on their own merits. And if you prefer Für Elise to Hammerklavier, it says nothing about the relative value of each, except to you. Enjoy!


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Uniqor]

Well people, I'm spent, on the argument of what's the most significant nature of the value of art...

Those who appreciate some the stuff I've been ranting about, have open minds and hearts, for music at least, so good for them!
Those who still listen to music under their self-manifested hardcore comparative principles, respect and really, good luck!

[KyleC]

usually when i listen to a piece im listening to get a reaction out of myself. I do listen to pieces that can be considered "lighter" but i have found that i much prefer the later works by Beethoven. Especially the loud and powerful ones that have much more dissonance. I think this takes you back to what music is really doing. It sets you up with the key, and that sounds like home, and than through key changes and all other kinds of dissonances it gives you a feeling of tension. than it takes you back home. i feel much more tension when listening to the Appassionata, or 5th, or Hammerklavier and it every note of it just seems more satisfying. i think appreciation grows with time. i remember the first time i heard the appassionata i hated it. it sounded like a bunch of nonsense to me. it sounded like complete chaos. but than i listened to it a few more times and it become clearer to me. it is beautiful in its own right just like fur elise. However, to me fur elise is just music, but pieces like the appassionata, 5th symphony, and hammerklavier they're just something else.
but as peter said; to each his own. as long as you are enjoying it.

[Johan]

I myself liked immediately the Hammerklavier sonata the first time I heard it. I also do listen to it more than to other sonatas nowadays.
Beethoven's late period works have other standards than his middle or early works.
For me the incredible peace they can give makes these more precious than any other music.

[King Stephen]

Like religion, music has a personal and objective side to it and I have to agree with Gurn. The bottom line really is not comparison but a preference. I too like Fur Elise but I also like "late" Beethoven. I don't particularly like Wellington's Victory, does that mean I am missing something, I think not, the work just has no appeal to me. Everyone to their own musical taste without the label of this is better or that's more worthy. By the way I know a lot of people who like Wellington's Victory.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
Like religion, music has a personal and objective side to it and I have to agree with Gurn. The bottom line really is not comparison but a preference. I too like Fur Elise but I also like "late" Beethoven. I don't particularly like Wellington's Victory, does that mean I am missing something, I think not, the work just has no appeal to me. Everyone to their own musical taste without the label of this is better or that's more worthy. By the way I know a lot of people who like Wellington's Victory.

King,
But I LIKE Wellington's Victory! One of Beethoven's greatest works! Particularly the shooting and stuff, I get all excited...



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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
King,
But I LIKE Wellington's Victory! One of Beethoven's greatest works! Particularly the shooting and stuff, I get all excited...

Ya, Gurn I know. People in the south western states like to run around outside shooting firearms up into the air for excitment and noise.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
Ya, Gurn I know. People in the south western states like to run around outside shooting firearms up into the air for excitment and noise.

We only do that where the more civilized types use firecrackers. I shot up a whole box of .357's last New Year. Yeeehaaa... that was fun!

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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[JA Gardiner]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
We only do that where the more civilized types use firecrackers. I shot up a whole box of .357's last New Year. Yeeehaaa... that was fun!

I bet! Of course the best guns in music are from Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture. With a couple of national anthems thrown in for good measure, who needs a historical reenactment society for that particular battle... However I think we're veering off topic here folks.
If the original question was about why it has taken some of us so long to come to appreciate the riches of music, all i can say is better late than never. Whilst I'm unlikely now ever to become a Concert pianist or a Classical singer or to get to hear all the music I might have if I'd started earlier, I feel that, coming to the repertoire with fresh ears and a degree of life experience and maturity, I perhaps get the best of both worlds and am able to make progress in understanding and appreciating the material more quickly and with more depth than I might have in earlier years. Mozart and Schubert however remain definitive proof that youth isn't always wasted on the young!

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Beethoven the Man!

[Rod]

Originally posted by JA Gardiner:
I bet! Of course the best guns in music are from Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture.

Beethoven's use of guns is much more entertaining than Tchaikovsky's! With Beethoven you get a whole battle on the stage! I suggest Beethoven's use of the national themes is also more interesting. I have a good recording of the 'Battle' by Nevile Marriner and the ASMF that uses additional effects of horses and the cries of the soldiers charging that really add to the overall impression, and this would be 10 times more electric if he'd used period drums and other intruments. Remember this music was not an overture like the 1812, but a piece of live theatre - the complications of which, according to Schindler, made conducting Fidelio look easy by comparison! Even if Schindler was being a little over the top, it does indicate there was more to the production of Wellington's Victory than is generally appreciated today.

After Beethoven I suggest the next best use of cannons in music is by AC/DC in their song 'For Those About To Rock We Salute You'. I am partially deaf in my left ear from the effects of hearing this live back in 1986!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-05-2005).]

[Michael]

Tchaikovsky made a hash of the "1812 Overture", I think, by including the "Marseillaise" to represent the French. It's such a bloody good tune that each time it appears it ovewhelms all the Russian themes. Beethoven didn't fall into this trap - he gave the British the stirring "Rule Brittania" and what did he give the French? "Marlbrouk" (otherwise known as "For he's a Jolly Good Fellow".)
So,at the start of "Wellington's Victory" while the British come on stage in a proper military fashion, the French seem to mince on to this frivolous tune. Beethoven does give them a bit of dignity towards the end when "Marlbrouk" returns in the minor key, to signify the French defeat.
I think "Wellington's Victory" is no masterpiece but it's great fun and a great piece to show off on your stereo. During the upcoming Beethoven Marathon on Radio 3 next June, the BBC have promised a live performance of this work in an unusual setting. (Waterloo Station, maybe?)
Michael

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
Tchaikovsky made a hash of the "1812 Overture", I think, by including the "Marseillaise" to represent the French. It's such a bloody good tune that each time it appears it ovewhelms all the Russian themes. Beethoven didn't fall into this trap - he gave the British the stirring "Rule Brittania" and what did he give the French? "Marlbrouk" (otherwise known as "For he's a Jolly Good Fellow".)
So,at the start of "Wellington's Victory" while the British come on stage in a proper military fashion, the French seem to mince on to this frivolous tune. Beethoven does give them a bit of dignity towards the end when "Marlbrouk" returns in the minor key, to signify the French defeat.
I think "Wellington's Victory" is no masterpiece but it's great fun and a great piece to show off on your stereo. During the upcoming Beethoven Marathon on Radio 3 next June, the BBC have promised a live performance of this work in an unusual setting. (Waterloo Station, maybe?)
Michael

Actually I've always found the "Marlbrouk" to be a more stirring piece than Rule Britannia, and certainly as they are arranged in the opening sequence of the 'Battle' - the French theme has a more determined feel about it, whereas nothing can make Rule Britannia sound less than jolly.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-05-2005).]