Playing Beethoven/Mozart/Bach

[KyleC]

ok so in my piano lesson today i was working on a duet with my teacher and im reading the music and we are playing and i see a dynamic marking of f. so i play loudly. and my teacher was like: "No no no. you are playing too loud for a mozart piece". i was a little confused and she explained to me that playing Mozart is much different than playing Beethoven and playing Beethoven is much different than playing someone else like Bach for example. i already understood this a little bit mainly because of the differences in time periods. but if there is such a big difference what are they? please im dying to know? and how exactly should one play Mozart? play Beethoven? play Haydn? Bach? thanks

i know it is mainly musical interpretations but how so? thanks

[Chris]

It's difficult to say, really, because the pianos of Mozart and Beethoven were not like the pianos we have today. Theirs were not capable of the level of loudness our modern pianos are, for one thing. But I'd say you are safe in playing "loud" when you see a forte. I think the most important things is that your louds are loud and your softs are soft. In other words, it's the difference between your louds and your softs that really matters.

As for Bach, I think he should be played on a harpsichord! Since most of us do have access to a harpsichord, I'd suggest playing without any dynamic change at all, since harpsichords are not capable of that.

[KyleC]

well if its mainly the differences between louds and soft that matter im in no trouble because im pretty sure my louds are loud and my softs are soft. but isn't there a difference between loud for Beethoven and loud for Mozart?

[Chris]

You mean did they mean different things by the "f" symbol? I don't think so. Maybe Peter can help us out here. Any thoughts, Peter?

[KyleC]

lol. not really i know that they both meant the same thing by the f symbol. but if you are playing Beethoven and you see f do you play louder than when you see an f in a mozart piece? by that i mean is there a difference? thanks, howevern chris because you have given me some good info and i do understand that question is a little funny.

[Chris]

No, I play forte the same for both Beethoven and Mozart. My teacher never told me otherwise, and I have never read that it should be otherwise.

Of course, as I said before, forte doesn't always mean exactly the same thing from piece to piece, even for the same composer. For example, if you have an fff somewhere in the piece, you'll have to tone down your f a bit so you have room to grow louder, if you know what I mean.

[KyleC]

yea i know what you mean. i never thought there was a difference. but than she was talking about how Mozart is a more feminine composer compared to Beethoven. i dunno. she said that it should be more light. and since she is the teacher and has been playing for 50 years or so. i listen

[Peter]

Chris is right about the relationship between forte and piano being relative, however a Mozart forte is played differently to a Beethoven forte. It isn't necessarily the volume, rather the character and touch that is used.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

Interesting, Peter, but I'm afraid "character and touch" is somewhat ambiguous to me. You can affect the velocity with which you strike the key, how long you hold it down, and the velocity with which you release the key. In terms of this, how might a Beethoven forte be played differently from a Mozart forte?

[Sorrano]

Beethoven's fortes are generally more dynamic than those of Mozart. The attack is sharper and the notation is often marked with various types of accents. I think the main difference is in the sharpness of the forte as compared with Mozart. At least, that is how I understand what Peter said.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
Interesting, Peter, but I'm afraid "character and touch" is somewhat ambiguous to me. You can affect the velocity with which you strike the key, how long you hold it down, and the velocity with which you release the key. In terms of this, how might a Beethoven forte be played differently from a Mozart forte?

There are many different ways of playing a chord other than simply dynamics - take the opening of B's 4th concerto, considered by many artists to be one of the most difficult things to bring off well. In Mozart the style generally requires a gentler approach and the fortes less attack and harshness than is sometimes called for in Beethoven. This is one of those things that needs to be demonstrated at a keyboard rather than explained in words.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

That's true for chords, but the fact remains that there are only three things you can affect when playing a note on the piano, as I mentioned, with the last two presumably having nothing to do with this at all. The only thing I can see that would affect this is the velocity with which you strike the key. If by a "sharper attack" you mean more velocity, that brings with it more loudness.

In other words, I don't see how you can distinguish volume and attack, because while they don't mean the same thing, you cannot affect one without affecting the other.

So it really comes down to this, as far as I can tell:

Do you strike the keys harder for a Beethoven forte than for a Mozart forte?

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 02-28-2005).]

[KyleC]

yea i understand kinda what Peter is talking about. or atlesast i think that i do. i have noticed that if you are playing loudly and you push through your wrists and your arms rather than your hands alone you have more control of the forte and it becomes less agressive than if you were to "strike" the keys with a lot of force. it is really hard to do and sometimes im prety sure i think im doing it when im really not but my teacher has hinted on several occasions that she could sense a difference between the two fortes so i must be doing it slightly right. However on some ocassions even i can tell when im doing it right. It takes some practice to get it down but i think you will notice it eventually if you try hard at it several times also you must pay very close attention because the difference is often rather minute. atleast when i do it.

is this correct in any way peter? hehe i believe you are a piano teacher and must know something of the matter.

[Uniqor]

Play the way in which you happen to play, because: it is the second best you can do to be a musician; the best you can do is to play your own piece with your own style at your own pace and your own piano - What? The ultimate purpose of art is to imitate? ...

[KyleC]

im not saying to completely immitate others. But certain periods and apparently cetain composers require cetain techniques and volume. You are not just immitating because the exact intensity is up to you. You can also find a million other ways to give a piece more character that you think it should have or to bring out the characters it does have. But there should be restrictions on just how far you go. I believe you musn't go much farther than what the composer intended just because you feel that something should be a certain way. for example if it is written pp for example playing f or ff is a little ridiculous. Dyanmics can be just as important to a piece as the right notes. and you wouldnt change an f to and f# just because you think it should be that way?

However i do agree with you number 1. but those of us, like me, who are still working on that perfect sonata or symphony we'll have to just play what somebody else wrote. Until the day!

[This message has been edited by KyleC (edited 03-01-2005).]

[This message has been edited by KyleC (edited 03-01-2005).]