Mystery of the contrabassoon

[Peter]

It's known that there were two contrabassoons in the orchestra at the first performance of Beethoven's Seventh Symphony, yet there's no part in the score.

Also in the finales of the 5th and 9th Symphonies there is a part for contrabassoon, but not in any of the other movements. I would like to know if Beethoven really intended those players to sit there doing nothing for 3 movements and then play the finales only?


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
It's known that there were two contrabassoons in the orchestra at the first performance of Beethoven's Seventh Symphony, yet there's no part in the score.

Also in the finales of the 5th and 9th Symphonies there is a part for contrabassoon, but not in any of the other movements. I would like to know if Beethoven really intended those players to sit there doing nothing for 3 movements and then play the finales only?

Well in the 4th piano concerto the drums and trumpets are silent until the final movement. Perhaps they played cards while they waited!? Perhaps they did not even come on stage until the required movement began in those days, given that, i believe, every movement would typically have been applauded then.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Peter:
It's known that there were two contrabassoons in the orchestra at the first performance of Beethoven's Seventh Symphony, yet there's no part in the score.

Also in the finales of the 5th and 9th Symphonies there is a part for contrabassoon, but not in any of the other movements. I would like to know if Beethoven really intended those players to sit there doing nothing for 3 movements and then play the finales only?

If you are right about the contrabassoons in that performance of the 7th Symphony, then they probably doubled the regular bassoons.

As for the finales of the 5th and 9th Symphonies, the contrabassoonists had the company of the piccolo player and the trombonists who also do not play in the first 3 movements (well there is a trombone in the scherzo of the 9th).

If you are concerned about lonely instumentalists, do not forget the harpist and the basset horn player in "Creatures of Prometheus," the percussionists in the 9th Symphony and "Ruins of Athens," and the contrabassoonist and trombonists in "Fidelio."

BTW, in many cases, the players of these "exotic" instruments could play other instruments as well.

[Chris]

Plus there's a huge strecth in the 9th where the basses don't play at all. I think it's safe to say that Beethoven put the instruments where they were needed and was not shy about letting them wait when they were not.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
Plus there's a huge strecth in the 9th where the basses don't play at all. I think it's safe to say that Beethoven put the instruments where they were needed and was not shy about letting them wait when they were not.

Yes but this still doesn't explain the use of contrabassoon in the first performance of the 7th symphony.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes but this still doesn't explain the use of contrabassoon in the first performance of the 7th symphony.

I can only assume they doubled the bassoons. I don't think there is another reasonable explination. Maybe it was a last minute idea?

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Chris:
I can only assume they doubled the bassoons. I don't think there is another reasonable explination. Maybe it was a last minute idea?

One of the weaknesses of the late-18th and early-19th century orchestras was the bass line. Many attempts were made to strengthen it. The French tried to solve the problem by inserting s single trombone, with mixed results.

If I recall correctly, the premiere of the 7th Symphony was a charity event to raise money for the wounded Austrian and German soldiers. A gigantic orchestra was assembled whose members read like a "who's who" of classical music. Anyone and everyone who could play was in it. This may explain the use of the "unneeded" contrabassoonists.

[Uniqor]

Which version of scores are you guys talking about??

[This message has been edited by Uniqor (edited 03-01-2005).]

[~Immortal Beloved~]

Originally posted by Uniqor:
Which version of scores are you guys talking about??

[This message has been edited by Uniqor (edited 03-01-2005).]

good question.

[Geratlas]

Originally posted by Peter:
It's known that there were two contrabassoons in the orchestra at the first performance of Beethoven's Seventh Symphony, yet there's no part in the score.

Peter! Where from is it known that there were 2 contrabassoons at the event? - And could it not be possible there, to interpret the instruments to have taken part in any of the other pieces played at the same occasion?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Geratlas:

Originally posted by Peter:
It's known that there were two contrabassoons in the orchestra at the first performance of Beethoven's Seventh Symphony, yet there's no part in the score.

Peter! Where from is it known that there were 2 contrabassoons at the event? - And could it not be possible there, to interpret the instruments to have taken part in any of the other pieces played at the same occasion?

Good point - the information about this came from Sir Charles Mackerras. He suggested that the contrabassoon followed the bass line and was used when there weren't enough bass players. At the first performance (a charity concert for wounded Austrian soldiers on 8th Dec 1813 given at the university hall) Wellington's victory was of course also premiered along with a performance of 2 marches, one by Dussek and the other by Pleyel, played by Malzel's mechanical trumpeter and orchestral accompanimant. For this occasion a celebrity orchestra of leading Viennese musicians was assembled including Schuppanzigh, Spohr, Meyerbeer, Hummel, Moscheles and Salieri.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Uniqor:
Which version of scores are you guys talking about??

Originally posted by ~Immortal Beloved~:

good question.

Silly question! - Beethoven's original version published by Steiner in 1816.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 03-17-2005).]