Trills

[Sorrano]

Quoted by KyleC: "ok so when your doing a trill how do you know what note to start on and what one to go to? i mean do you start on the note that is given with the trill mark above it and go up or do you go down. or do you start on the note above the designated note and go down or the note below and go up? i hope what im asking isnt too confusing.
oh and i think there are times when you start on the bottom note, so if this is true how do you know when there are expeptions? thanks"

A lot depends on how the trill is notated. most of the trills should start on the note above the given note (trilled note). There are some notations, though, especially from the Baroque period that will denote that the trill begins on the note, or below the note. If it is just marked "tr" then I would start on the note above.

[Uniqor]

This is what I do with ambigious markings:

Write down all the possibilities, play each of them one by one, then decide which one I thought sounded nice. Sometimes, I play two versions, because I like both of them. If I don't like none of the possible versions, then I invent a version myself.

Oddly, these trills are often the mini-highlites of my performances.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Uniqor:
This is what I do with ambigious markings:

Write down all the possibilities, play each of them one by one, then decide which one I thought sounded nice. Sometimes, I play two versions, because I like both of them. If I don't like none of the possible versions, then I invent a version myself.

Oddly, these trills are often the mini-highlites of my performances.

When I was younger I oftened ignored the trills and ornamentation that I could not play. As I got older (and hopefully) wiser I realized the necessity for me to play them correctly in order to play what the composer had intended. Otherwise I might as well write my own version--but I want to enjoy the piece as the composer intended it to be played.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

When I was younger I oftened ignored the trills and ornamentation that I could not play. As I got older (and hopefully) wiser I realized the necessity for me to play them correctly in order to play what the composer had intended. Otherwise I might as well write my own version--but I want to enjoy the piece as the composer intended it to be played.

Well actually I think you were wise when young not to attempt ornaments you couldn't play (particularly in Baroque keyboard music not intended for the piano) - better no ornament than a badly played one that might ruin an otherwise admirable performance. It is interesting to note the reasons for ornamentation and the change of use from the Baroque to the late classical, from mere decoration to becoming part of the texture as in late Beethoven.


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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:

Well actually I think you were wise when young not to attempt ornaments you couldn't play (particularly in Baroque keyboard music not intended for the piano) - better no ornament than a badly played one that might ruin an otherwise admirable performance. It is interesting to note the reasons for ornamentation and the change of use from the Baroque to the late classical, from mere decoration to becoming part of the texture as in late Beethoven.

I think the key is to play them correctly. However, I still struggle with them.

[Uniqor]

Sorano wrote: "When I was younger I oftened ignored the trills and ornamentation that I could not play..."

1 The fact that you were younger doesn't go with the fact that you couldn't play well.

2 Ignorance literally comes from ignoring. Nobody wants brilliance should ignore nothing.

Sorrano wrote: "However, I still struggle with them."

I think that's because you ignored them when you were younger.

[KyleC]

Uniquor, please play nice. no need to be mad. being mean does not come accross well amongst your peers.

[Uniqor]

Kyle C, thank you for your advise. Being a little aggresive on mere words and phrases is much better than being sturbon and agrogant in meanings and contents.

I don't consider my previosu post as mean anyhow. Please read it again without any prejudice. Whatever I said is useful for musical discussion.

[This message has been edited by Uniqor (edited 03-14-2005).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Uniqor:
Sorano wrote: "When I was younger I oftened ignored the trills and ornamentation that I could not play..."

1 The fact that you were younger doesn't go with the fact that you couldn't play well.

2 Ignorance literally comes from ignoring. Nobody wants brilliance should ignore nothing.

Sorrano wrote: "However, I still struggle with them."

I think that's because you ignored them when you were younger.

Very likely! But I tend to think the problem stems from a rhythmic coordination--it's the same reason I don't play much Chopin.

[KyleC]

sorry! i wrote it when i was really tired and i wasnt really thinking properly.

[Uniqor]

no problem...

[urtextmeister]

It has been my experience that some people have a knack for playing trills and others are not so disposed. Just as some people have a natural ability to play repeated notes. I can do a pretty mean trill especially if I use my favorite fingers, but I have never done well with repeated notes. I avoid them when possible and work hard them when I have to confront them.

If there is anything one can "leave out" in a score, it is ornaments. Especially in the baroque era and earlier. Ornaments in this era are generally just suggestions, anyway. One should add and delete as desired. I think the important thing about ornaments (this is true for cadenzas as well) is to show off one's strengths. If trills are not your thing, leave them out.

Trills in Beethoven, especially late Beethoven are a different story. Peter already alluded to this. That is, I suppose, why he wrote many of them out in full.

Back to baroque trills for a moment:
Yes, we should consult the various treatises on ornamentation, but isn't the whole concept of ornamentation a method of personal expression? To feel straightjacketed by ornamentation is wrong.