what do you think of beethoven

[Ateach Asc]

Originally posted by rmns2bseen:
to say that Beethoven is the greatest simply because he went deaf and Bach did not is like saying Milton is a greater poet than Shakespeare becuase Milton was blind when he produced Paradise Lost. ... but still Bach to me is the fountainhead. If it weren't for Bach (and Handel, for that matter) the Missa solemnis would probably not have the awesome proportions it took on.

The Missa is indeed a monumental work towering over and above anything still yet to be composed. However, it is huge distances past anyhting that Bach could have ever possibly contributed... because Beethoven had by this time totally reinvented music.
This does not mean that Bach himself did not have considerable genius. And if anyone notices ... the Missa's opening Kyrie is in fact a very huge homage to Bach. But, once past this tribute, the Gloria steps into Beethoven the absolute master and genius. Even Beethoven could not top this one in the last movement of the 9th symphony (which came very soon after). And noone has ever topped this passage of music.

That is why LVB remains the numero uno composer.


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Must it be? It must be!

[Vipercat]

Well, I can understand the fact that some people view Beethoven as the greatest composer. I myself place him in the Top 5, and he possessed considerable genius, there is no denying it.

However, the claim that Beethoven 'reinvented music' after being influenced by other composers in his early works and therefore is the greatest, is not concrete. Bach also changed the course of music dramatically, and so did many other composers!

It is in my opinion very narrow-minded to make such statements. Anyone who is a learned, good musician will know that there is far more to it!!! I guess ignorance is bliss........????

[Ateach Asc]

Originally posted by Vipercat:
It is in my opinion very narrow-minded to make such statements. Anyone who is a learned, good musician will know that there is far more to it!!! I guess ignorance is bliss........????

vipercat

This discussion is not about what type of personalities or mentalities would dare to suggest that Beethoven is the greatest of all of the composers.

This discussion is aimed at sounding various people's opinions as to which composer, in their belief, could wear the mantle of not just great, but rather GREATEST!!.

The fact that people, and a number of us do, choose Beethoven, to be, in their esteem, the GREATEST!! composer there ever was or ever will be, does not automatically doom them to the purgatories of narrowmindedness, and musical ignorance, as you readily do.

If you do not feel Beethoven deserves the mantle, then you are indeed entitled to that opinion. However, you are not entitled to publicly state, nor to suggest, that anyone who chooses Beethoven over and above the rest of the musical panoply is ignorant.

Here's hoping, vipercat, you'll understand why.


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Must it be? It must be!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Ateach Asc:
If you do not feel Beethoven deserves the mantle, then you are indeed entitled to that opinion. However, you are not entitled to publicly state, nor to suggest, that anyone who chooses Beethoven over and above the rest of the musical panoply is ignorant.

Well I respect your opinion and I certainly regard Beethoven as one of the greatest composers - however I think Vipercat was getting at your reasons rather than your chosen one! You stated that Beethoven 'reinvented music', but by this criteria you would have to include Guido d'arrezo in the 11th century for creating a system of notation that all subsequent western music depends on, Bach for establishing a system of tonality that would dominate western music for 150 years and Schoenberg for destroying it and making 20th century music possible - of these 3 men only Bach I feel belongs in Beethoven's illustrious company.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-16-2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I respect your opinion and I certainly regard Beethoven as one of the greatest composers - however I think Vipercat was getting at your reasons rather than your chosen one! You stated that Beethoven 'reinvented music', but by this criteria you would have to include Guido d'arrezo in the 11th century for creating a system of notation that all subsequent western music depends on, Bach for establishing a system of tonality that would dominate western music for 150 years and Schoenberg for destroying it and making 20th century music possible - of these 3 men only Bach I feel belongs in Beethoven's illustrious company.

When I listen to Bach I feel like i am someone on the outside looking in, so to speak. When i listen to Beethoven and Handel i feel drawn in, like being embraced. There is a very openly human touch to this music that is not found to anywhere near this degree, to my mind, in any other composers output.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Rod:
When I listen to Bach I feel like i am someone on the outside looking in, so to speak. When i listen to Beethoven and Handel i feel drawn in, like being embraced. There is a very openly human touch to this music that is not found to anywhere near this degree, to my mind, in any other composers output.

Yes, I can quite appreciate your point Rod, which is quite a powerful one. though I think there is an accessability in Bach in the St. Matthew Passion , and the B minor mass.



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~ Unsterbliche Geliebte ~

[Vipercat]

Originally posted by Ateach Asc:
vipercat

This discussion is not about what type of personalities or mentalities would dare to suggest that Beethoven is the greatest of all of the composers.

This discussion is aimed at sounding various people's opinions as to which composer, in their belief, could wear the mantle of not just great, but rather GREATEST!!.

The fact that people, and a number of us do, choose Beethoven, to be, in their esteem, the GREATEST!! composer there ever was or ever will be, does not automatically doom them to the purgatories of narrowmindedness, and musical ignorance, as you readily do.

If you do not feel Beethoven deserves the mantle, then you are indeed entitled to that opinion. However, you are not entitled to publicly state, nor to suggest, that anyone who chooses Beethoven over and above the rest of the musical panoply is ignorant.

Here's hoping, vipercat, you'll understand why.

Well, I was never dooming anyone. I distinctly said I understand if people choose Beethoven as the best. But as Peter said, the reasons used to argue the statement that he is the greatest is what isn't tangible.

Plus the fact that people put down other composers in the process. If you have a favorite it's fine with me, but like I said, just cuz someone has a favorite doesn't necessarily make them the greatest! It's a matter of opinion, not a fact, that is what I am saying.

[Big D]

The best this, the best that-it's all subjective. It's like little kids arguing whose dad is tougher or which baseball player is the best ever. It's better just to listen and appreciate the great art that's been created than trying to convince other people why "this composer is the best" or "this composer is the worst."


Much Love,
Big D

[stude_ham]

It seems to me, that for some unknown reason, a lot of people are fearful of stating the obvious conclusion that, up to now, Beethoven is still indeed the best and therefore the greatest composer that ever set music to paper.

This opinion is based on a very heavy amount of musical ingestion, that music ranging over several centuries to the present.

The opinion does not deny the worth and greatness of many of those who were kind and thoughtful enough to set down for posterity their musical ideas and inspirations. However, none reached the depths and heights of mystical and spiritual experiences that could be found in Beethoven's music.

[michael-14]

i think beethoven is the best composer ever

[SR]

Originally posted by stude_ham:
It seems to me, that for some unknown reason, a lot of people are fearful of stating the obvious conclusion that, up to now, Beethoven is still indeed the best and therefore the greatest composer that ever set music to paper.

This opinion is based on a very heavy amount of musical ingestion, that music ranging over several centuries to the present.

The opinion does not deny the worth and greatness of many of those who were kind and thoughtful enough to set down for posterity their musical ideas and inspirations. However, none reached the depths and heights of mystical and spiritual experiences that could be found in Beethoven's music.

Once again you demonstrate your confusion of your opinion with fact, somehow, what you think, must be a universal truth. If Blue is your favorite color must it be the BEST color ?

You end Paragraph 1 with "Beethoven is still indeed the best and therefore the greatest composer that ever set music to paper."
stated as though it were fact. You begin paragraphs two and three correctly with the word opinion. In many crowds Britney Spears would by some opinion be a better musician than Beethoven.

Steve

[Uniqor]

"The opinion does not deny the worth and greatness of many of those who were kind and thoughtful enough to set down for posterity their musical ideas and inspirations. However, none reached the depths and heights of mystical and spiritual experiences that could be found in Beethoven's music."

You know, I think you're probably right there. But that alone can't make Beethoven the "greatest". From my aesthetical point of view, there is no such thing as "the best", only "most liked", liked by most people that is. Is Beethoven liked by the most? I think that should be the question, if we want an anwser to: who's the "greatest"?



[This message has been edited by Uniqor (edited 11-29-2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by SR:
In many crowds Britney Spears would by some opinion be a better musician than Beethoven.

Steve

Yes but without seeming to be arrogant I think they would be rather misguided!
I do think that you can state certain composers are greater than others regardless of personal preference, Beethoven IS greater than Rossini despite that many people may prefer Rossini. Mozart is superior to Salieri and in other artistic fields Michelangelo Buonarroti is greater than Tracy Enim, Victor Hugo is greater than Jeffrey Archer and I'm sorry but Schubert's songs are superior to John Lennon's.

The only problem occurs when you get to the very cream of achievement and in music you have such names as Bach, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven and choosing a winner from the very best then becomes pointless.

This isn't personal preference, but we should be able to distinguish quality or else art has no value whatsoever which is exactly where current political thought is heading - total dumbing down and praising of mediocrity.


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'Man know thyself'

[Uniqor]

Quality, as you argue, can act as a measure of greatness. Before you can make such a conclusion, the meaning of quality must be defiined. If you try to do that, in the end, you'll probably find yourself deep into the chaos of aesthetics. The only conclusion you're then able to get is: there is no such thing as the "greatest" in all art. Try it.

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Uniqor:
Quality, as you argue, can act as a measure of greatness. Before you can make such a conclusion, the meaning of quality must be defiined. If you try to do that, in the end, you'll probably find yourself deep into the chaos of aesthetics. The only conclusion you're then able to get is: there is no such thing as the "greatest" in all art. Try it.

Would you like to have a doctor who provides 'quality' health care, or a doctor that risk your life with non quality health care?
The trouble with a relativistic view of art is that it robs thousands of words in the dictionary like sublime, noble, transcendent, uplifting, spiritual, etc. etc. robs of all meaning and is therefore a trivial and meaningless way of looking at things. We don't have to get into discussions about whether the Rumpled Bed, displayed in the Tate gallery, is art comparable with say Turner, because such a comparison is gibberish and robs human beings of all value and undermines the whole concept of artistic worth.



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~ Courage, so it be righteous, will gain all things ~