what do you think of beethoven

[tara porter]

I think that beethoven is the greatest composer of all times. He has wrote so many good piece of music

[Peter]

I don't think you'll find anyone here disagreeing with you!

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'Man know thyself'

[lvbfanatic]

absolutely the only greatest!

i confess that i dared flirt with the music many of the other great composers... and somehow eventually returned to the LVB works only to realize that what i was hearing was something even better than what i had heard before...

it takes time to wrap yourself around the works of LVB... but it's time well worth the effort...

the quartets... the symphonies... the concertos.. the sonatas... and the miscellaneous works... and the more you hear them ... the more they become good friends... but listeners beware!!! once you have mastered the art of hearing the Missa Solemnis (op 123) you might sneer at the 9th (op 125)... in any case... it's very difficult to get back to that last movement when the Gloria and the Credo of the MS are still humming away in your head...

bless his page for lovin LVB!



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A Calm Sea and A Prosperous Voyage

[Big D]

I hope I don't offend anyone by writing this, because I know this is a site dedicated to Beethoven, but, to be completely honest, I don't think any composer deserves the title of "Greatest Ever"-not even Beethoven himself! Such designations strike me as childish.

[This message has been edited by Big D (edited 10-22-2004).]

[Ateach Asc]

Originally posted by Big D:
I hope I don't offend anyone by writing this, because I know this is a site dedicated to Beethoven, but, to be completely honest, I don't think any composer deserves the title of "Greatest Ever"-not even Beethoven himself! Such designations strike me as childish.

Oh puleese!!! Ludvig was the greatest... and how do I know this... I just went ahead for the last few decades and listened to thousands of hours of other music... and that's how I came to realize noone could beat Ludvig at this game... Ludvig was just too much of a genius and just too too perceptive... and I would agree with an opinion found elsewhere in the discussion thread that by far the greatest work of music to date is the Missa Solemnis opus 123. and if anyone can name a better piece of music I'll have to hear it!

[Haffner]

Originally posted by Big D:
I hope I don't offend anyone by writing this, because I know this is a site dedicated to Beethoven, but, to be completely honest, I don't think any composer deserves the title of "Greatest Ever"-not even Beethoven himself! Such designations strike me as childish.

[This message has been edited by Big D (edited 10-22-2004).]

I would agree entirely. After all, beauty is in no way absolute and that which speaks to one, may leave another cold. No one is the single greatest composer, several contributed much to music but it is up to the individual to decide what speaks most sincerely to them.

[stude_ham]

Originally posted by Haffner:

...No one is the single greatest composer...

That is simply not true in the case of the musical arts...

While indeed there have been many good and possibly great composers in the musical panoply, and while there might still be a few good composers today... none has come anywhere near the pinnacle on which stands Beethoven as the lookout.

Beethoven worked pretty much alone, like many of his predecessors, and learned from their strengths. Even the lightest approach to this genius' life will note that JSBach, Handel, Haydn, and Mozart deeply affected and influenced LVB's thinkings. And his works very much incorporated their lessons.

For example, Handel's Royal Fireworks is so clearly evident in The Consecration of the House (op 124), and JSBach's influences can be heard in the quartets and the piano sonatas... and Mozart is very much alive in the first two of his symphonies, and the trios and sonatas...

But Beethoven, learning the musical lessons of these giants, stepped into and forged new musical passions. And it is therefore not at all surprising that most, if not all, subsequent composers of note, studied intensively, the works of Beethoven.

It is possible to go on at length justifying the choice of Beethoven as the greatest of all the composers. But I don't want to. I'm far too much into the raw pleasures of hearing and listening to his musical genius to spend any more time than this!

I hope that you too will one day come to realize the inescapable truth, that up to now, Ludvig van Beethoven does indeed wear the very well deserved crown earned only by being the greatest composer ever known.





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There are many princes but only ONE Beethoven!

[JA Gardiner]

'Nuff said I think!

[rmns2bseen]

I agree that the desgnation "greatest composer" is meaningless really; but if one had to choose (much as I love Beethoven) I think that distinction would have to go to J.S. Bach. No one ever combined intellectual rigor with sheer uplifting beauty the way Bach did, not even Beethoven or Mozart. But of course that is my subjective opinion.

[Haffner]

Originally posted by stude_ham:
That is simply not true in the case of the musical arts...

While indeed there have been many good and possibly great composers in the musical panoply, and while there might still be a few good composers today... none has come anywhere near the pinnacle on which stands Beethoven as the lookout.

Beethoven worked pretty much alone, like many of his predecessors, and learned from their strengths. Even the lightest approach to this genius' life will note that JSBach, Handel, Haydn, and Mozart deeply affected and influenced LVB's thinkings. And his works very much incorporated their lessons.

For example, Handel's Royal Fireworks is so clearly evident in The Consecration of the House (op 124), and JSBach's influences can be heard in the quartets and the piano sonatas... and Mozart is very much alive in the first two of his symphonies, and the trios and sonatas...

But Beethoven, learning the musical lessons of these giants, stepped into and forged new musical passions. And it is therefore not at all surprising that most, if not all, subsequent composers of note, studied intensively, the works of Beethoven.

It is possible to go on at length justifying the choice of Beethoven as the greatest of all the composers. But I don't want to. I'm far too much into the raw pleasures of hearing and listening to his musical genius to spend any more time than this!

I hope that you too will one day come to realize the inescapable truth, that up to now, Ludvig van Beethoven does indeed wear the very well deserved crown earned only by being the greatest composer ever known.

I wonder how learned you are in the art of music; upon reading your post, I would conclude that you are but a blind follower of Beethoven. You do not explain why Beethoven is the greatest, unless your point about him studying the music of the past is the basis of your argument. Every composer who has ever lived has done this and though most have not incorporated elements of past greats into their music as well as Beethoven did, there are many who have.

I am not ignorant to Beethoven's greatness and in terms of innovators I would place him in the top five of all composers, without question, but who are you to say that he is any greater than Palestrina, Josquin, Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Schumann, Schubert, Chopin, Wagner, Liszt, Debussy, Ravel, Bartok, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, and the list goes on. These were all musical innovators and though they are not as popular as Beethoven, they are no less great.

Many composers are universally studied; I do not know of a serious music student who does not study the fugues of J.S. Bach, the concertos of Mozart, the harmonies of Chopin and the revolutionary works of Wagner, Bartok and Stravinsky. All of these composers are studied as much as Beethoven so by way of your argument, they are equally great.

Please do not hope that I will come to realize your tainted version of the truth, the "inescapable truth" as you call it. You, nor I, nor anyone here is qualified to make such statements and making them reveals not only a great egoism but also a great ignorance of taste. As I said before, different things speak to different people, who are you to tell them otherwise? Most of all, who are you to tell them that Beethoven is the greatest?

[Sorrano]

Somewhere a long time ago I read that at any given moment there is a recording being played, or a performance of a Beethoven work. While popularity does not necessarily equate with greatness there may be some link there.

I wonder if that statement remains true today.

[stude_ham]

Originally posted by Haffner:
I wonder how learned you are in the art of music; upon reading your post, I would conclude that you are but a blind follower of Beethoven.

Haffner is very peceptive. Indeed I am very much unlearned in the art of music... and mathemathematics... and nuclear physics... and industrial management...banking... Latin ...the Aramaic tongue... and so on... and which of us is is not massively ignorant about so much? ... and indeed I have become a very blind follower of Beethoven... as I have of so many other cults and philosophies... Such as the Gilbert and Sullivan operettas.

but to go even further, I find much of the music of the other composers mentioned by respondent to be rather tedious boring solidly pretentious... and missing that one of the greatest of the Beethoven qualities... evolutionary ... inventive... constantly changing... and always deeply engaging. Not so with the others.

You do not explain why Beethoven is the greatest...

The obvious needs no explanation. Anyone who has devoted serious amounts of time and effort in their approaches to the music of Beethoven will indeed understand intuitively why Beethoven remains at the very centre of the musical universe... towering above it all!

...unless your point about him studying the music of the past is the basis of your argument. Every composer who has ever lived has done this and though most have not incorporated elements of past greats into their music as well as Beethoven did, there are many who have.

My statement omitted a fundamental point. Beethoven absorbed completely the past... but then he took that knowledge and advanced giant steps from there in a manner that only a perfect genius could do. And that set Beethoven apart from the rest.

I am not ignorant to Beethoven's greatness and in terms of innovators I would place him in the top five of all composers, without question, but who are you to say that he is any greater than Palestrina, Josquin, Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Schumann, Schubert, Chopin, Wagner, Liszt, Debussy, Ravel, Bartok, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, and the list goes on. These were all musical innovators and though they are not as popular as Beethoven, they are no less great.

The list does not provide composers whose outputs actually stand above Beethoven's. Nor does it provide composers whose major works went over and beyond magical musical formulae. You could have also mentioned Monteverdi, Brahms, Siebelius, Copeland, and so on... but all of these composers's fames rested on a particular set of works... and stylistic images... whereas there eventually is no particular style that can be associated with Beethoven's creativity... unless you know exactly where in music history fits the *Grosse Fugue*.

Very sadly, Schubert and Schuman were very much still developing their basic musical skills when they were so tragically cut off from life. And as far as Wagner is concerned.. this is easy... Beethoven was by very far much much greater... I believe that Shostakovitch probably understood Beethoven's absolute greatness... and that he spent enormous amounts of time studying Beethoven's quartets before composing one... and that Shostakovich 9th symphony paid tribute to Beethoven in the very friendly and amusing satirical parodies found quoted therein.

You, nor I, nor anyone here is qualified to make such statements and making them reveals not only a great egoism but also a great ignorance of taste. As I said before, different things speak to different people, who are you to tell them otherwise? Most of all, who are you to tell them that Beethoven is the greatest?

For me, this discussion is not about *musical taste*. It is about establishing the height of the pedestals upon which are to stand the composers past, present and future. There are indeed many good composers in that panoply, and you have mentioned a few. But they all stand in Beethoven's shadow. And I can say that with absolute confidence.



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There are many princes but only ONE Beethoven!

[KyleC]

i personally think that Beethoven is the best composer. however that does not mean i am right nor anyone else that disagrees with me to be wrong. some people like red cars and other people like blue cars but does that mean a red car is better? of course not. oh and everyone hear seems to be trying to show off their inteligence by making all of these conclusions and things. guys sometimes things are more clear cut and dry than they seem.

[Amalie]

Beethoven's music is surely the most dramatic and endurable ever written.
His life and works are an inspiration in the face of great difficulties and are surely a testament to the human spirit!
Only a genius could have written the 'Eroica' symphony, the 'Emperor' piano concerto, the Cello Sonata A major, 0p.69,
and his late string quartets.
He has a way of reaching the very depths of your soul.

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~ Unsterbliche Geliebte ~

[Euterpe]

Originally posted by Haffner:
I wonder how learned you are in the art of music; upon reading your post, I would conclude that you are but a blind follower of Beethoven. You do not explain why Beethoven is the greatest, unless your point about him studying the music of the past is the basis of your argument. Every composer who has ever lived has done this and though most have not incorporated elements of past greats into their music as well as Beethoven did, there are many who have.

I am not ignorant to Beethoven's greatness and in terms of innovators I would place him in the top five of all composers, without question, but who are you to say that he is any greater than Palestrina, Josquin, Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Schumann, Schubert, Chopin, Wagner, Liszt, Debussy, Ravel, Bartok, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, and the list goes on. These were all musical innovators and though they are not as popular as Beethoven, they are no less great.

Many composers are universally studied; I do not know of a serious music student who does not study the fugues of J.S. Bach, the concertos of Mozart, the harmonies of Chopin and the revolutionary works of Wagner, Bartok and Stravinsky. All of these composers are studied as much as Beethoven so by way of your argument, they are equally great.

Please do not hope that I will come to realize your tainted version of the truth, the "inescapable truth" as you call it. You, nor I, nor anyone here is qualified to make such statements and making them reveals not only a great egoism but also a great ignorance of taste. As I said before, different things speak to different people, who are you to tell them otherwise? Most of all, who are you to tell them that Beethoven is the greatest?

Relax...people are simply sharing their opinion. I will not venture to say which composer is the greatest. You cannot deny, however, that Beethoven and Mozart are household names that nearly every living soul on the planet has heard of (even if they mispronounce Mozart's name). You cannot say the same for the likes of Bartok and Shostakovich. Certainly greatness and popularity do not necessarily go hand in hand...but there may be a reason Beethoven and Mozart are the two most recognized names in music history. Now if we can just keep the really clueless people from confusing Beethoven's deafness with Van Gogh's sliced ear....

[This message has been edited by Euterpe (edited 10-26-2004).]