what do you think of beethoven

[Haffner]

stude_ham

My apologies, but it is far too boring to continue a discussion with an admitted blind follower of Beethoven. How could one ever take you serious if you accept this title willingly?

[stude_ham]

Originally posted by Haffner:
stude_ham

My apologies, but it is far too boring to continue a discussion with an admitted blind follower of Beethoven. How could one ever take you serious if you accept this title willingly?

Originally posted by stude_ham:

Haffner is very peceptive. Indeed I am very much unlearned in the art of music... and mathemathematics... and nuclear physics... and industrial management...banking... Latin ...the Aramaic tongue... and so on... and which of us is is not massively ignorant about so much? ... and indeed I have become a very blind follower of Beethoven... as I have of so many other cults and philosophies... Such as the Gilbert and Sullivan operettas.

and there is nothing wrong in that... and i very much admire all those who acknowledge their knowledge limitations... not only... but so did the very much admired Socrates.

maybe that's why i'm not in the least bothered to admit my wonderful blindly faithful adulation of the greatest of the composers... Beethoven.



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There are many princes but only ONE Beethoven!

[Zdravko]

Originally posted by Haffner:
I wonder how learned you are in the art of music; upon reading your post, I would conclude that you are but a blind follower of Beethoven. You do not explain why Beethoven is the greatest, unless your point about him studying the music of the past is the basis of your argument. Every composer who has ever lived has done this and though most have not incorporated elements of past greats into their music as well as Beethoven did, there are many who have.

I am not ignorant to Beethoven's greatness and in terms of innovators I would place him in the top five of all composers, without question, but who are you to say that he is any greater than Palestrina, Josquin, Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Schumann, Schubert, Chopin, Wagner, Liszt, Debussy, Ravel, Bartok, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, and the list goes on. These were all musical innovators and though they are not as popular as Beethoven, they are no less great.

Many composers are universally studied; I do not know of a serious music student who does not study the fugues of J.S. Bach, the concertos of Mozart, the harmonies of Chopin and the revolutionary works of Wagner, Bartok and Stravinsky. All of these composers are studied as much as Beethoven so by way of your argument, they are equally great.

Please do not hope that I will come to realize your tainted version of the truth, the "inescapable truth" as you call it. You, nor I, nor anyone here is qualified to make such statements and making them reveals not only a great egoism but also a great ignorance of taste. As I said before, different things speak to different people, who are you to tell them otherwise? Most of all, who are you to tell them that Beethoven is the greatest?

Beethoven is the greates simply bacuase no other composer or artist has overcome so much physical disability and suffering to achieve immortal art. This argument alone is enough to establish Beethoven as the greatest. There is no other DEAF DEAF artist in the hystory of music who has achieved so much . Not even Bach !!!!

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[Peter]

Originally posted by Zdravko:
Beethoven is the greates simply bacuase no other composer or artist has overcome so much physical disability and suffering to achieve immortal art. This argument alone is enough to establish Beethoven as the greatest. There is no other DEAF DEAF artist in the hystory of music who has achieved so much . Not even Bach !!!!

I don't accept your criteria for measuring greatness, yes Beethoven's music is some of the greatest ever written but not because he was deaf - You cannot say Beethoven suffered more, he himself said we all suffer but in different ways. Just a few examples, Chopin suffered terribly with TB and Tchaikovsky went through hell with depression.


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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Not to mention Smetana who also went deaf and ended up losing his memory and speech and was put in an asylum where he eventually died. Deafness also affected composer Gabriel Faure at the age of 64. High frequencies sounded flat to him, low ones sharp. He was finally asked to resign from the conservatoire when news of this became public.Then there's Schumann's tragic story. The list goes on and on.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[KyleC]

yes but Beethoven's deafness started when he was in his late twenties. that is much earlier than 64. although going deaf is going deaf, and it must be horrible to any musician, im certain it would be more harsh when you go deaf so young.
Everybody has to overcome something but you the arguement of Beethoven conquering his deafness does help justify him as having the one of the greatest minds of any of the composers because from the point he went deaf on he could only really on what he was "hearing" in his head. however, there are many other supporting detials to why he is the greatest, or atleast damn close to it.

[Peter]

Originally posted by KyleC:
yes but Beethoven's deafness started when he was in his late twenties. that is much earlier than 64. although going deaf is going deaf, and it must be horrible to any musician, im certain it would be more harsh when you go deaf so young.
Everybody has to overcome something but you the arguement of Beethoven conquering his deafness does help justify him as having the one of the greatest minds of any of the composers because from the point he went deaf on he could only really on what he was "hearing" in his head. however, there are many other supporting detials to why he is the greatest, or atleast damn close to it.

Of course Beethoven suffered greatly with his deafness (I imagine the tinitis was even worse) though he wasn't totally deaf until his 50's, but I think it was worse for him from the social point of view. All composers hear the sounds of their works in their heads (music students have to write 4 part harmony with nothing but pen and paper, no piano!!)and it would probably have been far more of a handicap from a composer's point of view to be blind - Bach, Handel and Delius suffered this fate in later life.

I should have thought of all the great composers, Chopin suffered the worse health - struck down by TB as a young man, he endured constant coughing of blood and an increasing sense of suffocation which of course proved fatal at 39.

I'm sure though that Beethoven became a greater composer as a result of his deafness - the increased isolation driving him inwards, an intense meditation that reached the highest levels and manifested in the late sonatas and quartets.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 10-30-2004).]

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Peter:
Of course Beethoven suffered greatly with his deafness (I imagine the tinitis was even worse) though he wasn't totally deaf until his 50's, but I think it was worse for him from the social point of view. All composers hear the sounds of their works in their heads (music students have to write 4 part harmony with nothing but pen and paper, no piano!!)and it would probably have been far more of a handicap from a composer's point of view to be blind - Bach, Handel and Delius suffered this fate in later life.

I should have thought of all the great composers, Chopin suffered the worse health - struck down by TB as a young man, he endured constant coughing of blood and an increasing sense of suffocation which of course proved fatal at 39.

I'm sure though that Beethoven became a greater composer as a result of his deafness - the increased isolation driving him inwards, an intense meditation that reached the highest levels and manifested in the late sonatas and quartets.

Peter, Another composer of note who suffered and died from the ravages of TB was Carl Maria von Weber. Ironically he was the same age when he died as Chopin, 39years old.

[ruudp]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
Peter, Another composer of note who suffered and died from the ravages of TB was Carl Maria von Weber. Ironically he was the same age when he died as Chopin, 39years old.

coming too think of it...who in his or her right mind would want too become a composer..sooo many of them suffered immeasurably,mussorgsky wsa alcoholic..tjaikovsky mentally instable just as schumann,schurbert dying of syphlilis händel getting blind at an older age and the list goes on...wat tragic stories...perhaps I should reconsider my musical career ....

Regards,
ruud

P.s greatness is measured with taste..looking at blind facts one can state a lot of great composers who achieved even greater things it's a persons own taste what determines a absolut nr.1...I myself like too see a pantheon of composers all equall in greatness on various fields and enjoy all of these composers without any prejudice, hell If I should go with the flow I wouldn't even listen too classical music is it is strictly for retarded people or soo many people believe in my enviroment.

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Music is like Blood...vital too ones well-being

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by ruudp:

hell If I should go with the flow I wouldn't even listen too classical music is it is strictly for retarded people or soo many people believe in my enviroment.

[/B]

ruud,
One of the stories I tell my students in school when refering to Beethoven is that his music is around 200 years old. They marvel at the fact its still around and being listened to. I then tell them the music, pop, rap, rock etc. that they are listening to will log be forgotten and that nobody will be listening to it by the time they finish high school. I then go on to play pop music from my generation, which causes much laughter, music from my children's generation (disco) and even the music of my 22 year old grandson. I then ask them, based on all of the above, if they think what they are listening to will servive for 200 years or so. Be it that they are 10 and 12 years old they still understand the message and agree that if what they listen to last for 10 years, as one student put it, it will be a miracle. Of course Beethoven is at the apex of the classical music program, so... in my little world, Hope springs eternal
KS

[Uniqor]

A man who had a misarable love life, which inspired many of his most passionate and sentimental work. And he went nut about it in the end, writting letters to his imaginary woman...

"A talented man, a good man, a great man...", yeah. But she didn't love him.

[SR]

Stude Ham

I admire your enthusiasim. Perhaps as you age you'll learn to see the difference between being the clear universal greatest, and just being your very favorite.

People who do have knowledge of music
nearly always place Beethoven in the top 5
if not the top 3.

Regards

Steve

[spaceray]

Originally posted by SR:
Stude Ham

I admire your enthusiasim. Perhaps as you age you'll learn to see the difference between being the clear universal greatest, and just being your very favorite.

People who do have knowledge of music
nearly always place Beethoven in the top 5
if not the top 3.

Regards

Steve

Or in Rod's case the top two!

[lvbfanatic]

Originally posted by SR:
Stude Ham

People who do have knowledge of music
nearly always place Beethoven in the top 5
if not the top 3.

Regards

Steve

Or in my case... the top 1... I too am with Stude Ham on that ONE!



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A Calm Sea and A Prosperous Voyage

[rmns2bseen]

to say that Beethoven is the greatest simply because he went deaf and Bach did not is like saying Milton is a greater poet than Shakespeare becuase Milton was blind when he produced Paradise Lost. That being said, what Beethoven was able to achive in spite of such adversity is astonishing. I love Beethoven and his works, but still Bach to me is the fountainhead. If it weren't for Bach (and Handel, for that matter) the Missa solemnis would probably not have the awesome proportions it took on.