New Beethoven PC debut

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, not a whole PC, but a movement, from 1789. You Brits, this is in your backyard. Tell me how it goes!
http://tinyurl.com/5d8oj

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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Michael]

It sounds like another of these mickey-mouse reconstructions similar to the "Macbeth" overture of a few years back where some rejected Beethoven sketches were combined with material from the "Ghost" Trio to form ten minutes of God-knows-what.
There are plenty of neglected Beethoven works that are more worthy of listeners' attention than this fabricated rubbish.

Michael

[Rudie]

Originally posted by Amalie:
Thankyou,that was most interesting Gurn,
It would be great to attend this concert, but I shall have to find when a premiere of the reconstruction of Beethoven pc adagio will be in the UK.

Here are more details for its first performance in Rotterdam on Feb 1st. http://www.dedoelen.nl/concertgebouw/index.php

click on the Brautigam speelt picture on the right for more info. I'm afraid it is not in English, but I think that Ruud may be able to translate it for us.
The actual adagio piece from Beethoven's unknown concerto lasts 8 minutes.

here goes nothing
Wereldpremière van... Beethoven
Ronald Brautigam in een reconstructie van het Adagio voor piano en orkest


Rotterdams Kamerorkest
o.l.v. Conrad van Alphen
dinsdag 1 februari 2005, Grote Zaal 20.15

m.m.v. Ronald Brautigam - piano

programma:
Schubert - Symfonie nr.5
Haydn - Pianoconcert in G Hob.XVIII:4
Beethoven (reconstructie C. Nieuwenhuizen) - Adagio voor piano en orkest (wereldpremière)
Mozart - Symfonie nr.40 KV550


Een wel heel bijzonder nieuwtje uit de klassieke tijd: een wereldpremière van Beethoven. Het betreft een reconstructie van zijn Adagio voor piano en orkest dat met een pianist als Ronald Brautigam direct in de best denkbare handen is. Ook de omlijsting mag er zijn. Klassiekers die elke keer weer nieuwe details bieden.

this is the most extraordinary news from the classical age, a WORLD premiere of beethoven.It's about a reconstruction of his adagio voor piano and orchestra, which is *offcourse* in the best hands thinkable with ronald brautigam, also the rest of the programme has got lots too offer, classical pieces each time reveiling new details...this is the *heavily overmerchandised* commercial for the concert. .. that's all so far ..

Noticed my new name?? since the reset I haven't been able too log in under my own name..so this should do ...many (much belated) greetings too ya'all...missed the daily dose of music sharing...

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Michael:
It sounds like another of these mickey-mouse reconstructions similar to the "Macbeth" overture of a few years back where some rejected Beethoven sketches were combined with material from the "Ghost" Trio to form ten minutes of God-knows-what.
There are plenty of neglected Beethoven works that are more worthy of listeners' attention than this fabricated rubbish.

Michael

I disagree! Several musicologists contend that the Largo assai of the "Ghost Trio" comes from sketches Beethoven made for "Macbeth." I personally know the arranger of the "Macbeth Overture" and can assure you that he is no Mickey Mouse reconstructor. He is one of the co-founders of the Unheard Beethoven website (www.unheardbeethoven.org).

BTW, thanks to some reconstructors, we have various musical gems like the following:
1. "Fur Elise" by Beethoven.
2. "Rage over a lost penny" by Beethoven.
3. "Requiem" by Mozart.
4. "Turadot" by Puccini.

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
I disagree! Several musicologists contend that the Largo assai of the "Ghost Trio" comes from sketches Beethoven made for "Macbeth." I personally know the arranger of the "Macbeth Overture" and can assure you that he is no Mickey Mouse reconstructor. He is one of the co-founders of the Unheard Beethoven website (www.unheardbeethoven.org).

BTW, thanks to some reconstructors, we have various musical gems like the following:
1. "Fur Elise" by Beethoven.
2. "Rage over a lost penny" by Beethoven.
3. "Requiem" by Mozart.
4. "Turadot" by Puccini.

Being the co-founder of that site isn't THAT of an argument. I'd rather listen that he is world famous as THE beethoven scholar. I guess he is not .

I did some analizing (for myself) of the reconstruction of the Macbeth overture. I'm sorry, but it is CLEAR that that guy doesn't know that much of Beethoven style simply by employing valve horns and trumpets. Did he study his writing at all? Notes out of the range Beethoven used (in other instruments), horns playing stoped notes Beethoven NEVER used (they were possible, yet he NEVER used them), e.g. D in the first space below the G-clef staff.
Don't try to tell us that because you know him, that he is the co-founder of that site and that he meant well that he has done a good job.

Now, for the examples:
1- didn't know .
2- didn't know either, actually, this is mentioned in Schindler's book, so it must have been known that day, so I think it's unlikely to have been reconstructed.
3- Wasn't reconstructed, Mozart left instructions for Eybler to finish it and Constanze left those instructions (and some not related at all manuscripts) to Süssmayr, both of them tried to finish it, there is a huge difference between that and reconstructing it.
4- Alfano (is that his name? can't remember) finished it were Puccini left it. He didn't reconstruct it.

I agree with what Michael said, taking Macbeth as an example, I expect very little of it.


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"Wer ein holdes weib errungen..."

[Amalie]

Welcome back Hofrat, and thankyou as always for your intersting input.

Beethoven musicologist Cees Nieuwenhuzen orchestrated the movement using the outline, attempting to adhere to Beethoven's early style.
It is a calm, but deeply emotional piece.

The Rotterdam Chamber Orchestra also premiered a similar reconstructed Beethoven concerto for oboe last year.

It would be lovely to hear those pieces !



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~ Courage, so it be righteous, will gain all things ~

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Rudie:
this is the most extraordinary news from the classical age, a WORLD premiere of beethoven.It's about a reconstruction of his adagio voor piano and orchestra, which is *offcourse* in the best hands thinkable with ronald brautigam, also the rest of the programme has got lots too offer, classical pieces each time reveiling new details...this is the *heavily overmerchandised* commercial for the concert. .. that's all so far ..

I think that is mistaken, it's not a premiére of Beethovens, it's a reconstruction of a *rough torso* he left. Was it a Haydn's torso of a Mozart's torso, things would be better, but Beethoven changed his sketches and ideas to the last minute possible (e.g. Leonore's overtures, he finished the first (n.2) in the morning of the premiére.) so I think that should he have finished it it would be very different from anything anyone can offer to us nowadays.

I guess that the hottest news of that kind was Gardiner's discovery of Berlioz Messe Solemnelle.



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"Wer ein holdes weib errungen..."

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
I disagree! Several musicologists contend that the Largo assai of the "Ghost Trio" comes from sketches Beethoven made for "Macbeth." I personally know the arranger of the "Macbeth Overture" and can assure you that he is no Mickey Mouse reconstructor. He is one of the co-founders of the Unheard Beethoven website (www.unheardbeethoven.org).

BTW, thanks to some reconstructors, we have various musical gems like the following:
1. "Fur Elise" by Beethoven.
2. "Rage over a lost penny" by Beethoven.
3. "Requiem" by Mozart.
4. "Turadot" by Puccini.

I'm not aware of a Fur Elise reconstruction - there is another revised fragmentary version dating from 1822 which may be what you are referring to, but I think the 1810 version is original.

As for the rage over a lost penny, I believe only the ending was supplied by Diabelli.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rudie]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
I think that is mistaken, it's not a premiére of Beethovens, it's a reconstruction of a *rough torso* he left. Was it a Haydn's torso of a Mozart's torso, things would be better, but Beethoven changed his sketches and ideas to the last minute possible (e.g. Leonore's overtures, he finished the first (n.2) in the morning of the premiére.) so I think that should he have finished it it would be very different from anything anyone can offer to us nowadays.

I guess that the hottest news of that kind was Gardiner's discovery of Berlioz Messe Solemnelle.

rutr,
I didn't state my opinion..merely gave a translation of the dutch article as amalie asked me...I'm curious what this piece holds, and as I said the add was heavily commercialized soo I don't expect too much from it aswell.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Amalie:


The Rotterdam Chamber Orchestra also premiered a similar reconstructed Beethoven concerto for oboe last year.

It would be lovely to hear those pieces !

BTW, Beethoven left very extensive sketches of a piano concerto in D-major in 1815 (Hess 15). Professor Nicholas Cook was able to make a performance score from it and it has been recorded by Inedita, to be released in the spring. This will be Inedita's 4th CD of Beethoven rarities.

The oboe concerto movement was recorded by ASV but its release has been postponed due to the resignation of the conductor from the recording orchestra.

May I recommend Monument Records (www.monument-records.com) if you are interested in listening to very rare Beethoven gems, many of which have been recorded for the first time.

[Michael]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
I personally know the arranger of the "Macbeth Overture" and can assure you that he is no Mickey Mouse reconstructor. He is one of the co-founders of the Unheard Beethoven website (www.unheardbeethoven.org).

The arranger of the "Macbeth" Overture is doing sterling work for the "Unheard Beethoven Site" by providing MIDI versions of Beethoven's sketches. I have downloaded many of them - several hours worth, in fact - because they are mostly unavailable elsewhere.
However, he has tried, in many cases, to form these fragmentary pieces into complete works - often working, like Dr. Barry Cooper - with just two or three themes. This is an interesting exercise in it's own right - but the result is not a Beethoven work and should not be publicised as such.
A more acceptable and accurate title for such a work would be something like: "A Fantasia based on themes by Beethoven" or whatever.
It is infuriating to find these reconstructions getting headlines in the press while many genuine works are ignored.
Maybe the BBC Marathon next June will go some way towards redressing the balance, and I will be surprised if the "Macbeth" overture is included.

Michael

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
I think that is mistaken, it's not a premiére of Beethovens, it's a reconstruction of a *rough torso* he left. Was it a Haydn's torso of a Mozart's torso, things would be better, but Beethoven changed his sketches and ideas to the last minute possible (e.g. Leonore's overtures, he finished the first (n.2) in the morning of the premiére.) so I think that should he have finished it it would be very different from anything anyone can offer to us nowadays.

I guess that the hottest news of that kind was Gardiner's discovery of Berlioz Messe Solemnelle.

The Berlioz find was, indeed, a great find!

I've not listened to the Macbeth Overture but would like to sometime, as well as the other reconstruction pieces. I did listen to the reconstruction of the 10th Symphony movement and found it to be interesting, but one has to listen to these things with an open mind and realize that it is only a reconstruction.

[Johan]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

The Berlioz find was, indeed, a great find!

I've not listened to the Macbeth Overture but would like to sometime, as well as the other reconstruction pieces. I did listen to the reconstruction of the 10th Symphony movement and found it to be interesting, but one has to listen to these things with an open mind and realize that it is only a reconstruction.

And Messe solennelle by H. Berlioz was in 1991 discovered by Frans Moors.
One can really almost imagine something great coming out of the 10th symphony from the sketches, had Beethoven really continued to compose it (or did he...???).
The "10th symphony movement" and the forthcoming should be put in a category where they belong. They are not something Beethoven composed to completion (for a performance). And as they now stand there are alien hands...

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Michael:
The arranger of the "Macbeth" Overture is doing sterling work for the "Unheard Beethoven Site" by providing MIDI versions of Beethoven's sketches. I have downloaded many of them - several hours worth, in fact - because they are mostly unavailable elsewhere.
However, he has tried, in many cases, to form these fragmentary pieces into complete works - often working, like Dr. Barry Cooper - with just two or three themes. This is an interesting exercise in it's own right - but the result is not a Beethoven work and should not be publicised as such.

Michael

In many cases on the Unheard Beethoven site, the original sketch version is placed next to the competed or restored version. That way, the listener can compare the original idea and the suggested way to complete it. Nowhere on the Unheard Beethoven site does it say that these completions are Beethoven's works. It is also a credit to the founders of the site that the MIDI's are FREE and DOWNLOADABLE.

As for Dr. Barry Cooper's "realization and completion" of the 1st movement of Beethoven's 10th Symphony, he had far more than just 2 or 3 themes. He had around 250 bars of sketches. There is a recording of this completion that includes his lecture on how he did it. He stated that there was more than enough thematic material in the sketches to make a reasonable attempt to complete it. Also, he admits in his lecture that Beethoven most certainly would have done it differently, but Cooper believes that he was able to give the listener an idea of what Beethoven had in mind.

So, it is not Beethoven and they do not claim it is Beethoven. It is an interpretation of what Beethoven had in mind.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

I've not listened to the Macbeth Overture but would like to sometime, as well as the other reconstruction pieces. I did listen to the reconstruction of the 10th Symphony movement and found it to be interesting, but one has to listen to these things with an open mind and realize that it is only a reconstruction.

As I mentioned, Inedita has recorded 4 CD's of Beethoven rarities. On the 3rd CD you will find the "Macbeth Overture." Also, ASV has recorded it too, but once again the release of this CD has been postponed indefinitely.