Hollywood hates Beethoven?

[euphony131]

Yeah, perhaps I jumped the gun on that one -- after all, the associating of a stupid movie with great music isn't a good thing.

But I just can't stand seeing movie-goers going wild over a film's soundtrack, one that's not even original. I think that's another thing that's hurt CM -- the advent of motion pictures and their cornball music. People think of it as "New Classical" hence forgoing even further any notion of listening to genuine CM: "Why should I listen to Beethoven? He sucks! John Williams rules dude!"

Plus even when CM is used, any symbolic effect is completely lost on an audience ignorant of CM. For example -- most people failed to see the Wagner/racist analogy when "Ride of the Valkyries" was played to such blasting effect in the movie, "Apocalypse Now."

Coppola, being an opera buff, was obviously trying to highlight the "redneck" sentiments of Col. Kilgore: "I play Wagner! Scares the hell outa' the gooks!" (I'm sure Wagner would've loved to hear that one) It also seemed to capture the whole "white man's burden" ideology of dominating the "mud" races as helicopters spray on the fire. But again, all this was lost on theatre-goers oblivious to Wagner's racist theories. Too bad...instead they just cheer and wallow in the destruction.

Maybe CM shouldn't be used in movies after all. Not enough people are erudite enough to see the connections. Not that I'm a genius or anything!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
It is directed by Tony Palmer (who apparently has done a Handel film - do you know of it Rod?) Available on Connoisseur Videos.

For all its defects, it is a better effort than 'Immortal beloved' and I just wish Tony Palmer would do something with Beethoven !

I haven't seen the Handel film. but since Handel generally kept his opinions and emotions totally to himself (or at least very little indeed is know of these things today) I'm not sure an accurate portrayal could be made of the man, although he traveled alot and got into many an opera 'duel' which would make for a good story.

With Beethoven, ultimately I think the man is simply too much of a complex character for TV and film.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[BP]

Correction, Peter, I believe Richard Burton's last film was a verson of George Orwell's 1984. As for film music, I don't see all of it as rip-offs, there is some origional material in the movies. I suggest reading the book "The Score" by Michael Schelle for more info on this. Also, I cannot help but say to Euphony, It doesn't matter that every movie adagio is a version of a classical one because almost every classical one is a new version of another classical one, and almost all slow movements of the classical period sound alike, and most romantic ones do too, in one way or another.

BP

[Peter]

Originally posted by BP:
It doesn't matter that every movie adagio is a version of a classical one because almost every classical one is a new version of another classical one, and almost all slow movements of the classical period sound alike, and most romantic ones do too, in one way or another.

BP

You're on dangerous ground there ! The examples to disprove that are too numerous to list.


Without wishing to sound pretentious, to the unmusical ear you may be right - To someone not familiar with much 'serious' music,Haydn sounds like Mozart, Bach sounds like Handel and in fact ALL Classical,Baroque,Romantic music sounds the same !




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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
You're on dangerous ground there ! The examples to disprove that are too numerous to list.

I'll list one anyway!

In Baroque times it was the accepted norm for composers to 'borrow' other composers thematic material and then develop it. Handel is the most famous 'borrower', but they all did it - Bach borrowed at least as much from the Italians as Handel, Bach even borrowed from Handel himself on occasion (is seems H never heard any of B's music). Yet after all this, these two exactly contemporary composers are chalk and cheese musically! Totally different.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

Yet after all this, these two exactly contemporary composers are chalk and cheese musically! Totally different.

Which one's the chalk ?!

Handel said after being accused of borrowing from a minor composer, 'Yes, but it was much too good for him!'

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Which one's the chalk ?!

Personally I find, for all that Bach can write a good tune, his obession with complex counterpoint lessens the music's melodic effectiveness, whereas Handel's generally simpler part-writing allows for a bolder harmony and melody. Bach's music is also somewhat predictable to my ears compared with Handel's. Just my impression since you've asked for it, I know most people prefer Bach.

Much was made here of the significance of the occasion when Beethoven met Mozart - the 'meeting of two giants', but I feel the event was ultimately of little consequence, Beethoven being a relative minor at that time. But JS Bach really wanted to meet up with Handel (who was far more famous) but his efforts were thwarted by circumstance. If these two had met I think this would have been the greatest meeting of minds as would be possible between direct contemporaries.




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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[BP]

What I was saying that in effect is that there are often many similarities, peter. Yes, there may be personal differences, but for the most part, Classical Period slow movements never really build towards a climax, they just float around. And Romantic movements usually have a very 'heavy' sound. I can cite many examples that prove my theory. You might not agree with me, but disagreements are unavoidable here, thats what this forum seems to be about.

BP

[Serge]

The whole nature of the different periods of c.m. is endlessly arguable, but I'm definitely in BP's corner on this one.

The reason I dislike the "classical" period so much is that it usually seems to me like a performer vamping continually for, like, an hour. I find there is little in the way of theme development, exposition, or any other method involved in sonata form. A melody is introduced, gets played around for a bit, then comes back and then it's done. I am obviously not putting much musicological detail here, but that is certainly due to the fact I won't listen to Mozart or Haydn unless it's accidental. I spent a good ten years giving them a try, and am completely soured on them, despite the valuable contribution they gave to Ludwig. I'm bored to tears when I listen to classical c.m. I can't help it.

Getting back to the original topic (!), if Hollywood spent more time using c.m. as it were truly written, it is very possible that the saturation of c.m. could cheapen it. I like the idea of using source material, but only in movies that "deserved" it.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Serge:

The reason I dislike the "classical" period so much is that it usually seems to me like a performer vamping continually for, like, an hour. I find there is little in the way of theme development, exposition, or any other method involved in sonata form I'm bored to tears when I listen to classical c.m. I can't help it.

.

Well Beethoven is a 'Classical' composer ! I find it bizarre that you find 'little in the way of theme development, exposition, or any other method involved in sonata form ' with Classical composers - Sonata form belongs primarily to the Classical period ! Of course it is ultimately a personal choice but I think it sad if someone finds Haydn/Mozart/Schubert (and by your criteria 'classical'- Beethoven as well!) boring and actively dislikes the music.

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'Man know thyself'

[Serge]

Don't cry for me, Peter. I only restrict my defintion of 'classical' c.m. to H and M. Schubert is very nice to listen to, and I consider the nature of Beethoven to be anything but classical. I suppose my only deliberate attempt to avoid music comes at the expense of H and M; and that's after years of trying to enjoy them. I really can't explain why that's the way it is. There is just something in those two composers' music (Haydn, esp.) that won't engage me.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Serge:
Don't cry for me, Peter. I only restrict my defintion of 'classical' c.m. to H and M. Schubert is very nice to listen to, and I consider the nature of Beethoven to be anything but classical.

Well as I said in another post , read Charles Rosen 'The Classical Style' and you will see that Beethoven quite clearly was a Classical composer. He provides an excellent study of Beethoven from the musical point of view - a must for anyone who is going to argue this point.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Serge:
Don't cry for me, Peter. I only restrict my defintion of 'classical' c.m. to H and M. Schubert is very nice to listen to, and I consider the nature of Beethoven to be anything but classical. I suppose my only deliberate attempt to avoid music comes at the expense of H and M; and that's after years of trying to enjoy them. I really can't explain why that's the way it is. There is just something in those two composers' music (Haydn, esp.) that won't engage me.

One could describe Beethoven as 'late classical' but still classical! But you can make anybody sound Romantic if ignore history and the score, which happens to be the case with Beethoven. You could probably make Palestrina sound like Wagner if you messed with it enought, certainly Beethoven has been messed with by all your heros! And thus Beethoven has been identified with the origin/excesses of the Romantics. I've got some rare late Handel music that would make your jaw drop, such is its 'modern' drama and novel invention, but that doesn't make it Romantic. Britten described Beethoven as 'where the rot set in'. I can only suppose Britten read nothing about music or its historical development - a not unreasonable possiblity from my experience of music critics. Why do you think Romanic music lovers can never accept the authentic Beethoven movement? I suspect because harsh realities shatter daydream illusions.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin