Hollywood hates Beethoven?

[euphony131]

Ok, don't wanta' be hogging the board, but an all-night binge on B. has me going -- I'll probably hibernate after this...

Here's my gripe/question --

Why does Hollywood bother to score original soundtracks for movies when there's a near endlesss supply of incredible music already existing? A' la Beethoven and other greats? After all, you look at some of the more famous soundtracks and they're really nothing more than rip-offs of what has come before, ex. -- Star Wars theme and Imperial March are either collages or taken almost straight from Holst's "The Planets" and you hear any ominous choral track and it's basically a slight variation on "Carmina Burana" by Orff. And let's not forget all the tear-jerking Hollywood "love/sad" music which is just watered down versions of Adagios from the Masters. It doesn't make any sense. Why not save your dough and just use the music by the Great Composers? Music that's infinitely more profound? Lifted out of context or taken in bites, any Great Composer's music can be made to fit a movie. Is it just because guys in Hollywood are so ignorant of Classical Music? What a costly mistake! To pay someone millions just to copy Beethoven!

Personally I'd rather hear the Greats played in a movie than somebody's pirated version of it. I'm sick of people leaving a movie and saying "Oh, that soundtrack was great!" As if it's something so original! Don't they know about TRULY great music; music that was created way, way before any Mel Gibson movie?

I suppose I'm a purist in that regard; would rather hear Beethoven's Adagio or Allegro rather than Hollywood's hatchet-job take on it. If you're gonna listen to it, listen to the REAL DEAL. Accept no substitutes!

And forgive my naivete but does copyright infringement somehow come into play in all this? Is that why even directors who know a thing or too about Classical don't want to use it? But that's still bizarre to me. I mean -- who you would you have to pay to use Beethoven's music? All his descendents have passed away, right?

All I know is that if I were a film-director I would be using TONS of Classical for the soundtrack -- for the full gamut of human emotions there's nothing better.

[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 02-17-2001).]

[Peter]

I agree - Sorry to bring Mahler into it yet again, but your comments remind me of the film Death in Venice, when one of the hollywood producers remarked - great music, who is this guy Mahler? - we must sign him !!

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'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

Even in the movie, "Beethoven" (the one about the dog) the makers could have made some use of B's music, but they settled for a mock-Mozartian soundtrack by Randy Edelman.
They couldn't even get the style right.

Michael

[Kevin]

Originally posted by euphony131:
Ok, don't wanta' be hogging the board, but an all-night binge on B. has me going -- I'll probably hibernate after this...

Here's my gripe/question --

Why does Hollywood bother to score original soundtracks for movies when there's a near endlesss supply of incredible music already existing? A' la Beethoven and other greats? After all, you look at some of the more famous soundtracks and they're really nothing more than rip-offs of what has come before, ex. -- Star Wars theme and Imperial March are either collages or taken almost straight from Holst's "The Planets" and you hear any ominous choral track and it's basically a slight variation on "Carmina Burana" by Orff. And let's not forget all the tear-jerking Hollywood "love/sad" music which is just watered down versions of Adagios from the Masters. It doesn't make any sense. Why not save your dough and just use the music by the Great Composers? Music that's infinitely more profound? Lifted out of context or taken in bites, any Great Composer's music can be made to fit a movie. Is it just because guys in Hollywood are so ignorant of Classical Music? What a costly mistake! To pay someone millions just to copy Beethoven!

Personally I'd rather hear the Greats played in a movie than somebody's pirated version of it. I'm sick of people leaving a movie and saying "Oh, that soundtrack was great!" As if it's something so original! Don't they know about TRULY great music; music that was created way, way before any Mel Gibson movie?

I suppose I'm a purist in that regard; would rather hear Beethoven's Adagio or Allegro rather than Hollywood's hatchet-job take on it. If you're gonna listen to it, listen to the REAL DEAL. Accept no substitutes!

And forgive my naivete but does copyright infringement somehow come into play in all this? Is that why even directors who know a thing or too about Classical don't want to use it? But that's still bizarre to me. I mean -- who you would you have to pay to use Beethoven's music? All his descendents have passed away, right?

All I know is that if I were a film-director I would be using TONS of Classical for the soundtrack -- for the full gamut of human emotions there's nothing better.

[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 02-17-2001).]

Hollywood is an industry and as such has little to do with art. They don't know much about CM, much less B. They are guided first and foremost by economic considerations and politics. They prefer watered down versions of the classics because they don't believe the public can handle anything else. Plus present day "composers" can make a commission. In Hollywood like many other places it isn't about art or what is good, it is about money and who you know.

[Chris]

Maybe I don't understand what you are saying, but how could you use that kind of music for movies? It needs to be timed to the action, and all that kind of stuff. I don't think straight Beethoven would do the job in a film.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
Maybe I don't understand what you are saying, but how could you use that kind of music for movies? It needs to be timed to the action, and all that kind of stuff. I don't think straight Beethoven would do the job in a film.

Sorry for just being me again Chris (glad I'm not the only patronising person here!), but the best man for the job is Ennio Morricone.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[SR]

Originally posted by Chris:
Maybe I don't understand what you are saying, but how could you use that kind of music for movies? It needs to be timed to the action, and all that kind of stuff. I don't think straight Beethoven would do the job in a film.

You are the only one who does get it. It's much easier to write music to match picture than to cut picture to match music. I work in the movie business.



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Regards

Steve

[Michael]

Originally posted by SR:
You are the only one who does get it. It's much easier to write music to match picture than to cut picture to match music. I work in the movie business.

Maybe that was what was wrong with "Immortal Beloved". The director said he cut most of the film to match Beethoven's music - for example the (fictitious) "Moonligh Sonata" scene was timed exactly to fit the music.
Then again, the director had no choice in a movie about Beethoven. He could hardly call in Ennio Morricone.
Maybe that's why all movies about composers turn out so unsatisfactorily.

Michael

[Peter]

Originally posted by Michael:
Maybe that's why all movies about composers turn out so unsatisfactorily.

Michael

It's possibly a factor - I suggest misrepresenting the facts, appalling scripts and lousy acting also play a big part !

I make an exception with the epic 1984 'Wagner' starring Richard Burton (his last film I believe). The film was of course way too long (9 hours!), overblown like the operas, but there was some fine acting. Burton grew into the part so by the time he was portraying the old Wagner, he actually looked like him. The guy who played Liszt was amazing, he simply was Liszt.
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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 02-19-2001).]

[euphony131]

Originally posted by SR:
It's much easier to write music to match picture than to cut picture to match music.

Ok, granted...but how about this -- why not cut the MUSIC to fit the picture? As I stated earlier, any composer's music taken out of context or in bites or edited can be made to fit a movie (look at John Boorman's "Excalibur"). I'm not saying you gotta use an ENTIRE symphony or concerto; just use portions or edited bits.

But then again I suppose film-makers enjoy spending tons of money for music that's not even original?

And I'm sorry but saying that Ennio Morricone (or AC/DC or whatever) is the equal to Beethoven is like saying Charles Schulz is as good as Michelangelo. Hey! I like Snoopy as much as the next guy, but no way is Charlie Brown close to the splendor of the Sistine Chapel! Is Stephen King better than Shakespeare? I don't think so.

Go ahead, call me "elitist" or "stupid" or what have you, but I can't see the point in using music that's just a lame copy of what's already been done and done better by the Masters. I'm not saying EVERY soundtrack is lame and retarded; I just don't see the point in spending all that time and energy in creating what amounts to be a rip-off.

Even John Williams admitted he went back to Holst's "The Planets" for ideas on how to score Star Wars. Lucas could've saved himself a bundle and lot of hassle by just going out and buying "The Planets" on CD. Like duh...


[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 02-19-2001).]

[Michael]

Peter, where did you see the nine hour Wagner bio? Is it on video? Of course it would have to be that length with Wagner - every one of his operas seems to be about nine hours long.

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 02-19-2001).]

[euphony131]

Taking a step back here --

Interesting how everytime I've heard the subject of CM and movies come up that invariably there will be the one "from Hollywood" who scoffs at the idea of using CM instead of original soundtracks --
"because you can't time the music to the movie." And yet that has never stopped film-makers from "timing" Pop music/songs to their movies. Hmmmm...Pop good/CM bad?

I think it all just comes down to a lack of knowledge and love for CM. That's all. I'd love to see every director in Hollywood given a crash course on the sounds of CM -- maybe something will change after that, maybe they'll be like, "Oh, uh, what a minute...why don't we just use THIS stuff instead of hiring somebody?" Yeah, buddy -- Why NOT???

[Chris]

There are more problems than just timing with using classical pieces for movies. Sometimes you want a certain tune associated with a certain character, and if people have heard that tune before, it ruins the effect. Plus, when you're writing for movies, you sometimes have to write in a style that isn't available in classical music, since music takes a back seat to the action in movies. You need music that sounds stupid when played by itself, sometimes. Watch some episodes of the original Star Trek to get a feel for what I mean about composing to fit the situation on screen.

[Peter]

I agree with Chris here - Just look at what associating classical music with individual characters can do - I can't hear the overture to William Tell without an image of the Lone Ranger galloping across my mind !

The music has to fit the action. A film such as Death in Venice worked because there was little action and plenty of atmosphere - it really was a slow moving visual film which Mahler's music fitted perfectly . There are plenty of examples of other films where Classical music has been used successfully (Walt Disney's Fantasia), but to suggest that it is appropiate for all films is unrealistic.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Michael:
Peter, where did you see the nine hour Wagner bio? Is it on video? Of course it would have to be that length with Wagner - every one of his operas seems to be about nine hours long.

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 02-19-2001).]

I actually have it on 3 videos - It has an amazing cast - Richard Burton, Vanessa Redgrave, Gemma Craven, Laurence Olivier, John Geilgud , Ralph Richardson , Joan Plowright, Arthur Lowe, Prunella Scales - I could go on - with other equally well known names - it even has a small part (non-speaking)with Sir William Walton as Friedrich August ll of Saxony ! The music is conducted by Solti.
I warn you though - it is drawn out (like the operas) but it does have some wonderful moments and superb visual effects - It covers the general historical period as well (with the 1848 Revolutions, which Wagner was of course personally involved at Dresden). It is directed by Tony Palmer (who apparently has done a Handel film - do you know of it Rod?) Available on Connoisseur Videos.

For all its defects, it is a better effort than 'Immortal beloved' and I just wish Tony Palmer would do something with Beethoven !
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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 02-20-2001).]