On This Day!

[Joy]

On December 8, 1813 -- Almost totally deaf, Ludwig van Beethoven conducts the premiere of his Symphony No. 7 in a benefit concert at the University of Vienna.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[PDG]

Thanks, Joy. The 7th was the most universally popular of his symphonies, and I think he'd have taken great comfort from the acclaim since he was worried that he'd lost his public to Rossini. Opus 92 put our man back at no.1. (Like he was ever anywhere else.....)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
Thanks, Joy. The 7th was the most universally popular of his symphonies, and I think he'd have taken great comfort from the acclaim since he was worried that he'd lost his public to Rossini. Opus 92 put our man back at no.1. (Like he was ever anywhere else.....)

The circumstances surrounding the first performances of the the 7th contributed enormously to its success, and it really was the Battle symphony that caused the greatest sensation. By 1816 the Viennese public were greeting the famous Allegretto with faint applause where once they had cheered. Also we shouldn't forget Weber's reaction to the 7th, describing Beethoven as ripe for the madhouse!

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
The circumstances surrounding the first performances of the the 7th contributed enormously to its success, and it really was the Battle symphony that caused the greatest sensation.

Go on, Rod, tell us again about those shouting horses!! Don't tell me nneeii-gghh......

By 1816 the Viennese public were greeting the famous Allegretto with faint applause where once they had cheered. Also we shouldn't forget Weber's reaction to the 7th, describing Beethoven as ripe for the madhouse!

Did Beethoven ever lower himself to answering that insult? I think not. Okay, "universally" apart from Weber.

The twit.



[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 12-10-2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
Did Beethoven ever lower himself to answering that insult? I think not. Okay, "universally" apart from Weber.

The twit.

Well he had quite a few insults with the 7th, particularly the finale inspiring such descriptions as "the acme of shapelessness", "this absurd, untamed music", "this delirium, in which there is no trace of melody or harmony, no single sound to fall gratefully upon the ear". When the symphony was performed in Leipzig a few years after the 1st performance the general opinion was that the composer must have been drunk when writing the 1st and 4th movements! Fortunately posterity is rather wiser in its assessment of this gloriously rousing symphony.


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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well he had quite a few insults with the 7th, particularly the finale inspiring such descriptions as "the acme of shapelessness", "this absurd, untamed music", "this delirium, in which there is no trace of melody or harmony, no single sound to fall gratefully upon the ear".

Those cattle! Those asses!!

When the symphony was performed in Leipzig a few years after the 1st performance the general opinion was that the composer must have been drunk when writing the 1st and 4th movements!

So what if he were! With the turmoil of his life, who could blame him inebriate escape? Hell, I'm drunk right now!........I feel a symphony coming on.........

Fortunately posterity is rather wiser in its assessment of this gloriously rousing symphony.

The first mvt. in particular stirs me. The major/minor modulations throughout, the unique orchestral lifts, the menacing coda (reminiscent of the closing of the 1st mvt. of Op.125). Fantastic galloping music. But don't chase foxes to it. (Hic.......)

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by PDG:
The first mvt. in particular stirs me. The major/minor modulations throughout, the unique orchestral lifts, the menacing coda (reminiscent of the closing of the 1st mvt. of Op.125). Fantastic galloping music. But don't chase foxes to it. (Hic.......)

Even the final chord, that imperfect authentic cadence raises eyebrows.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Even the final chord, that imperfect authentic cadence raises eyebrows.

Sorry Sorrano but you've lost me there, not really sure what an imperfect authentic cadence is! - in both the first and last movements the final cadence is a straight forward V-I Perfect cadence.


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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:

Sorry Sorrano but you've lost me there, not really sure what an imperfect authentic cadence is! - in both the first and last movements the final cadence is a straight forward V-I Perfect cadence.

An imperfect authentic cadence has to do with the final chord itself. Typically the root is in the high voice and the low voice, which is a perfect authentic cadence; in the Beethoven Symphony the high voice is the 3rd of the chord--C-Sharp (I believe--it's been awhile since I've looked at that). It's always struck me as a strange cadence in this movement, but it works.

I realize that terminology may be different from one region to another as well as from one generation to another. You may have a different term for this, but this is how I was taught.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

An imperfect authentic cadence has to do with the final chord itself. Typically the root is in the high voice and the low voice, which is a perfect authentic cadence; in the Beethoven Symphony the high voice is the 3rd of the chord--C-Sharp (I believe--it's been awhile since I've looked at that). It's always struck me as a strange cadence in this movement, but it works.

I realize that terminology may be different from one region to another as well as from one generation to another. You may have a different term for this, but this is how I was taught.

It is a long time since I studied harmony, but I think you are quite right in your terminology - I was muddling my Imperfect cadences with imperfect Perfect cadences! A Perfect cadence (authentic) is generally V-I, but as you say in the Beethoven the soprano voice has the 3rd instead of the root which is less final in effect and sometimes this can be called imperfect authentic. However I recall that it is debatable and I think in the Beethoven 7th that the chord coming on a strong beat and well prepared by the dominant creates a Perfect cadence - it seems a strong close to me.

Perhaps a better example of what you mean is the 8th bar of the the first mov of the 8th symphony - again V-I and with the 3rd in the top but in this case the tonic chord is on the weak beat and the cadence is much weaker.

Thanks for refreshing me on this!

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 12-13-2004).]

[lvbfanatic]

Originally posted by PDG:
Did Beethoven ever lower himself to answering that insult? I think not.

Perhaps not... but he only composed 2 more symphonies in the next 11 years... So it appears that the criticism may have had a profound impact. Fortunately, Beethoven managed to forge ahead ... and today, many of us are thankful that he did.

BTW Woulfd the 8th symphony have been a forceful response to the dimwitted critics of the 7th?




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A Calm Sea and A Prosperous Voyage

[Peter]

Originally posted by lvbfanatic:
Perhaps not... but he only composed 2 more symphonies in the next 11 years... So it appears that the criticism may have had a profound impact. Fortunately, Beethoven managed to forge ahead ... and today, many of us are thankful that he did.

BTW Woulfd the 8th symphony have been a forceful response to the dimwitted critics of the 7th?

Well the 8th was composed around the same time as the 7th 1811/12 and received its first performance a few months after the 7th, so it was not a response to any criticism. There were other reasons for the slow down in symphonic production - chief amongst them was the emergence of the late style period and Beethoven's adoption of his nephew. Also I think that for Beethoven the first decade of the 19th century had produced an unprecedented period of creative activity, masterpiece after masterpiece and I think the muse needed a little rest before producing the final glories of the late period.

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
It is a long time since I studied harmony, but I think you are quite right in your terminology - I was muddling my Imperfect cadences with imperfect Perfect cadences! A Perfect cadence (authentic) is generally V-I, but as you say in the Beethoven the soprano voice has the 3rd instead of the root which is less final in effect and sometimes this can be called imperfect authentic. However I recall that it is debatable and I think in the Beethoven 7th that the chord coming on a strong beat and well prepared by the dominant creates a Perfect cadence - it seems a strong close to me.

Perhaps a better example of what you mean is the 8th bar of the the first mov of the 8th symphony - again V-I and with the 3rd in the top but in this case the tonic chord is on the weak beat and the cadence is much weaker.

Thanks for refreshing me on this!

The way that I learned it is that an authentic cadence is V - I and the determining factor whether it is perfect or imperfect is placing of the root at top and bottom.

The ending of the 1st movement threw me for a loop when I first heard it. I waited for the rest of the cadence but it never came.

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
The ending of the 1st movement threw me for a loop when I first heard it. I waited for the rest of the cadence but it never came.

Or did it? In fine performances it's just like the 4th of Schumann, the first movement ends on the second. Schumann does an even more imperfect cadence, because he ends the first movement in D minor with A on the top, not F or D, yet, he intends the conductor to end the first movement on the first chord of the second (which is D minor with D on the top).
Whether B. wanted this or not (Gardiner does it like this, but he may be influenced by his studies on Schumann, even though his Schumann's recordings came quite later) when I first heard it I was left wanting for breath, it simply ended, it took me a while to get back to my senses, and the Allegretto helped in that way. I'm simply overwhelmed by every good performance of it.

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"Wer ein holdes weib errungen..."

[This message has been edited by Rutradelusasa (edited 12-13-2004).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
Or did it? In fine performances it's just like the 4th of Schumann, the first movement ends on the second. Schumann does an even more imperfect cadence, because he ends the first movement in D minor with A on the top, not F or D, yet, he intends the conductor to end the first movement on the first chord of the second (which is D minor with D on the top).
Whether B. wanted this or not (Gardiner does it like this, but he may be influenced by his studies on Schumann, even though his Schumann's recordings came quite later) when I first heard it I was left wanting for breath, it simply ended, it took me a while to get back to my senses, and the Allegretto helped in that way. I'm simply overwhelmed by every good performance of it.

That is an interesting thought. The next movement begins with an a minor chord as I recall (the Beethoven 7th). I am not as familiar with the Schumann 4th as I would like to be. Of all the 4 symphonies it is the least accessible to me.