nazi death camps

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I was clearly talking about the mind not the life. Beethoven may have been inadequate in various ways but he was characteristically sincere and honest, with noble intention. These qualities show, to me at least, in his compositions. I get this same latent impression with Handel which is one of the reasons why I am drawn to his music too. I don't get this sence from any other music to such a high degree. Are you saying only I can sence these things!?

I agree that Beethoven was as you say a basically good man with good intentions, but this is also true of Bach, Brahms, Chopin, Mozart, Schumann, Dvorak, Haydn (to name but a few) - indeed the only composer with a truly repellent nature I can think of is Wagner, but doubtless even he had his redeeming qualities! It's not black and white, no one is all good or all bad.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I agree that Beethoven was as you say a basically good man with good intentions, but this is also true of Bach, Brahms, Chopin, Mozart, Schumann, Dvorak, Haydn (to name but a few) - indeed the only composer with a truly repellent nature I can think of is Wagner, but doubtless even he had his redeeming qualities! It's not black and white, no one is all good or all bad.

Yes but beethoven in addition was a greater genius! That combination is far more rare!!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Haffner]

Wagner's music is at times quite sincere while at others it is not. This, in my opinion, is due greatly to the dramatic intention of his work; it was all written for the stage. Often he was forced to sacrifice emotional expression for dramatic effect, I do not think the occasional insincerity in his work stems from a questionable character.

And in terms of sincere music coming only from those who are sincere, I feel this to be entirely true. The type of person one is is most often revealed through the art they produce; the arrogance in Liszt's music, the humour in Mozart's or the piety in Bach's, these are all fine examples of this concept. But I think it is wrong to assume that Beethoven was a better man than all of those just stated. Rod, perhaps you feel this way because your personality is more attuned to Beethoven's than to any other composer’s. I think everyone would find they share personality traits with their favourite composer, I believe I do; this may be why one is so drawn to the music of a particular composer, because they speak the same language, so to speak.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Haffner:
Rod, perhaps you feel this way because your personality is more attuned to Beethoven's than to any other composer’s. I think everyone would find they share personality traits with their favourite composer, I believe I do; this may be why one is so drawn to the music of a particular composer, because they speak the same language, so to speak.

I have thought along these lines myself, because it is only Beethoven and Handel that stimulate my attention, the rest have little or no effect on me.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Haffner:
Rod, perhaps you feel this way because your personality is more attuned to Beethoven's than to any other composer’s....

Then posted by Rod:
I have thought along these lines myself, because it is only Beethoven and Handel that stimulate my attention, the rest have little or no effect on me.

Exactly, you more or less realize it yourself; you are more attuned to Beethoven and Handel's musical personalities than to any others, by far. I would think it would make more sense to explain it that way and leave it at that than to go on trying to demolish the discernment of the hordes of lovers of Bach, Mozart, Schubert, Brahms, and others, and maintain that your 'discernment' is better than anyone else's (composers, conductors, instrumentalists, critics, fans) in two centuries of music history, because virtually everyone else has loved more than only B. and H. Isn't it more than a little ludicrous to maintain you are the 'Best', or 'Only', True Discerner in the 19th and 20th centuries' Western musical history? That you have been born with or developed a disernment that trumps and outweighs all others, including Toscannini, Furtwangler, Karajan, Solti, Walter, all the other conductors, all the soloists, all the composers, Alfred Einstein the critic, Albert Einstein the physicist, Albert Schweitzer, Ernest Newman, all the other critics, all your own favorites among the HIP conductors and soloists, all the members of this board, all the members of all the other music boards, and on and on and on! What genes you must have!!... Isn't it more rational to assume that you are simply attuned to B. and H., and that's it? And stop this endless denigration of all else with greatness to it, attested to by so many legions of others?


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 10-29-2004).]

[Zdravko]

Originally posted by Peter:
This is quite true - it is simply Beethoven's genius as a musician that marked him out amongst men, other than that he was probably little different from his brothers.

I disagree. Beethoven was one of the most spiritually and morally elevated men in human history. He is a close second to spiritual figures in history like Jesus Christ. There are heaps of musical geniuses throughout the hystory of music. Yet they don't measure up to Beethoven because of his charachter, faith, personality and his moral system . A man who sacrifices his earthly time and energies to
write music for posterity ,a man who preaches new a faith is no ordinary man. Beethoven was a man with a mission and he knew it. And I agree: being elevated is not the same as being kind when dealing with the people around you.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Zdravko:
I disagree. Beethoven was one of the most spiritually and morally elevated men in human history. He is a close second to spiritual figures in history like Jesus Christ. There are heaps of musical geniuses throughout the hystory of music. Yet they don't measure up to Beethoven because of his charachter, faith, personality and his moral system . A man who sacrifices his earthly time and energies to
write music for posterity ,a man who preaches new a faith is no ordinary man. Beethoven was a man with a mission and he knew it. And I agree: being elevated is not the same as being kind when dealing with the people around you.

Well it is obviously a view you hold sincerely. I don't really see composing music as sacrificing your earthly time - Beethoven was an astute businessman as is evident from his dealings with publishers. You may not think being kind to those around you is a spiritual attribute, but I think it is - Do you think Christ (whom you compare Beethoven to) would have requested a servant who was deformed so he would be able to humiliate him? Beethoven frequently beat his nephew and undoubtedly caused the boy great psychological damage by removing him from his mother - this ultimately led to his suicide attempt. I don't think his dealings with his sister in laws were elevated, but came from a rather prudish standpoint which caused misery for the whole family situation.

I agree the music itself elevates us and is profoundly spiritual, but I also find this in Bach, Mozart and Chopin.

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'Man know thyself'

[william jesset]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well it is obviously a view you hold sincerely. I don't really see composing music as sacrificing your earthly time - Beethoven was an astute businessman as is evident from his dealings with publishers. You may not think being kind to those around you is a spiritual attribute, but I think it is - Do you think Christ (whom you compare Beethoven to) would have requested a servant who was deformed so he would be able to humiliate him? Beethoven frequently beat his nephew and undoubtedly caused the boy great psychological damage by removing him from his mother - this ultimately led to his suicide attempt. I don't think his dealings with his sister in laws were elevated, but came from a rather prudish standpoint which caused misery for the whole family situation.

I agree the music itself elevates us and is profoundly spiritual, but I also find this in Bach, Mozart and Chopin.

Dear Peter and fellows posters:
First since this is a discussion board may I please say this:
Lets not confuse THE MUSIC with the human condition-
The MUSIC is sacred-whoever created it or did they? Or are they just a channel, a receptor to the Divine.
Quite possibly the dilema of sacred(music) and the mudane(real time life) is cause for counterpoductive actions of mind and spirit.
To touch divinity for a second in time while composing, only to be reduced to a product to sell in the next ,THAT might NOT be worth anything to those that hold commerce as dear as we hold music, is just one of countless factors the are a distraction to artistic endeavors.
So what if Dear Ludwig was rude and a drunk,Charlie Parker was a hype,and lets get
one of JS Bach's children on a talk show to see how home-life was with Pa-pa.
The most important is how/what are YOU doing? Are you friend or foe? You are both at the same time depending on whose viewpoint you ask.
I agree that to mix the human element into
Music only muddles pure color until it becomes a brownish/green/ black - like a bad finger painting.
Also do not think for one minute that THIS Music or any music of great skill and thought is easy to assimulate-even if it follows the physics of harmony(tonal organisation).
Who cares if the masses get it- they don't and they might never grasp it- and thats just fine, so don't do them and yourselves a diservice by pretending that YOU are NOT of a higher thought process. Just be classy and suffer those who we must traverse among.
Yes find another teacher- what is this facinaction with BAD teachers? I constantly see this ,like its wrong to admit, MY teacher is an ASS - My opinion is this - NOT ONE TEACHER has ever enlightened my thought process, unless their position was as a foil to my beliefs.
Debussy was in a conseratory for 10+- years and was in a debate with his professor about music and the Prof. says "If You know so much WHY ARE YOU HERE!!?
C Debussey replies:
" so I will know what NOT to do"

[Rod]

Originally posted by william jesset:
Debussy was in a conseratory for 10+- years and was in a debate with his professor about music and the Prof. says "If You know so much WHY ARE YOU HERE!!?
C Debussey replies:
" so I will know what NOT to do"

The the increasing academisation of classical music (in the wider sence of the term) is to a large degree responsible for the increasing decline of the genre over the past 150 years. The thing is, the most important things you need cannot be taught, you need the internal desire. If you want to be a good composer or get any kind of independent grasp of things musical, I suggest avoid the academies, conservatories and universities, before you are 'turned'!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-30-2004).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
The the increasing academisation of classical music (in the wider sence of the term) is to a large degree responsible for the increasing decline of the genre over the past 150 years. The thing is, the most important things you need cannot be taught, you need the internal desire. If you want to be a good composer or get any kind of independent grasp of things musical, I suggest avoid the academies, conservatories and universities, before you are 'turned'!

The best thing the academies and conservatiories offer are tools of the trade and not much more. I hope to soon return to composition, and when I do, being far removed from those environments, I will be able to sift through the many, many available tools offered by these institutions and write the things that reside in my heart. And hopefully, that which is negative and dark within will remain there.

[atserriotserri]

Originally posted by Rod:
The the increasing academisation of classical music (in the wider sence of the term) is to a large degree responsible for the increasing decline of the genre over the past 150 years. The thing is, the most important things you need cannot be taught, you need the internal desire. If you want to be a good composer or get any kind of independent grasp of things musical, I suggest avoid the academies, conservatories and universities, before you are 'turned'!

That's interesting. What portion of responsibility do you think it has the sedimentation of hundreds of years of music? Do you think that perhaps the existence of so much to listen, to play and to learn from leads to the consequence of dramatically reduce the space for experimentation, exploring or self-learning because composing is divinized after that enormous background? I think it's a balance very hard to find.

[Rod]

Originally posted by atserriotserri:
That's interesting. What portion of responsibility do you think it has the sedimentation of hundreds of years of music? Do you think that perhaps the existence of so much to listen, to play and to learn from leads to the consequence of dramatically reduce the space for experimentation, exploring or self-learning because composing is divinized after that enormous background? I think it's a balance very hard to find.

The problem is the whole aesthetic of the art becomes dictated by a few academics - this aesthetic is passed down from one generation of academics to another - and invariably becomes a more deviant mutation, both in terms of contemporary composition and the understanding of music from bygone days.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
The problem is the whole aesthetic of the art becomes dictated by a few academics - this aesthetic is passed down from one generation of academics to another - and invariably becomes a more deviant mutation, both in terms of contemporary composition and the understanding of music from bygone days.

Amen!

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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[atserriotserri]

First of all, I'm not trying to contradict you, but to know more about the point you make, which is very interesting.

I think every teacher or academic, by himself, has a taste, a preference, an inclination or if you want, a "deviation" for some musicians, interpretations of partitures, instruments, etc... and ccording to them arrive to its own conclusions, looking or finding more or less support in others (contemporary or past). I don't perceive that cohesive dictation of aesthetic you point out, perhaps because I'm not part of that machinery you mention (I'm not studying music).

I think that from time to time someone "shakes the tree" and the moves the pendulum to a side or another (already mentioned in the topic "the wrath of Böhm" when mentioning the slowliness of some performances of the 9th referred as some historic periods). On the next step I think we'll agree: A cohort of followers appear and another of critics appear too, some of them positioning just for their ideas about art, some others to climb on their status in the world of arts by being in the "winners" side.

What's true and sad is that, existing such an numerous potential public and so many opportunities, there is so much music composed and recorded that the new compositions find few or no room to be performed or recorded. And I think that it's not academics' guilt; also industry, listeners (me amongst them) are to blame for instance. Read the what are you listening topic; how many pieces composed on the 2nd half of 20th century you see?

[rmns2bseen]

Originally posted by Zdravko:
I disagree. Beethoven was one of the most spiritually and morally elevated men in human history. He is a close second to spiritual figures in history like Jesus Christ. There are heaps of musical geniuses throughout the hystory of music. Yet they don't measure up to Beethoven because of his charachter, faith, personality and his moral system . A man who sacrifices his earthly time and energies to
write music for posterity ,a man who preaches new a faith is no ordinary man. Beethoven was a man with a mission and he knew it. And I agree: being elevated is not the same as being kind when dealing with the people around you.