nazi death camps

[beezor Mcfu]

My wife is doing a paper on beethoven. Her teacher tells her that his music was used in gas chambers and in other horrific ways by the nazi's. She also states he was antisemetic. I can find nothing to substantiate or refute these claims. Any help out there would be appreciated.

[Peter]

Whatever the Nazis did has absolutely nothing to do with Beethoven or his music and if you're wife's teacher is trying to imply something by this, I suggest she finds another teacher who understands Beethoven!


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by beezor Mcfu:
... She also states he was antisemetic. I can find nothing to substantiate or refute these claims. Any help out there would be appreciated.

I can add further assistance by stating B was not an antisemetic. So I suggest she looks for something else to write about.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[atserriotserri]

I think that once a composer has finished his work, if he doesn't expressly (or in an obvious way) endorse or support one particular idea, policy, etc... he is not bound by what some stupid guys (to put it in a more or less polite way) in an uniform do while playing his music. Anyone who doesn't understand this, in my humble opinion, should not teach.

There are discussions over some antisemitic essays apparently ghost-written by Caroline Sayn Wittgenstein for Liszt, also about the personality of Wagner, reportedly antimilitaristic (arranging for his son Sigfried to dodge the draft, very sensitive, pacifist (just look Parsifal!)... What's the problem, that some mad, frustrated & bigoted german guy who became an horrific dictator fancied german-nordic mythology and epics... That's why Baremboim deserves lifetime credit daring to play Wagner in Israel to make people open their eyes.
The world we're living is too interested in labelling people, creations, etc. because is easier to "read the label" and decide according it than listen, think, compare, read about and decide. And, as you can see, it drives me mad.
I haven't read anything that suggest LvB was antisemitic, nor his music gives any clues for me.

I think this could take us to an interesting debate. Just imagine one composer you admire, whose music you consider moving, etc... you discover he/she was/is antisemitic for example. Would you stop listening to that music?

[Peter]

Originally posted by atserriotserri:
I think this could take us to an interesting debate. Just imagine one composer you admire, whose music you consider moving, etc... you discover he/she was/is antisemitic for example. Would you stop listening to that music?

Well the obvious example is as you have mentioned Wagner. No I think you have to judge a work of art on its own merits - Gesualdo and Benvenuto Cellini were murderers but no one seems too bothered about that!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 10-26-2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well the obvious example is as you have mentioned Wagner. No I think you have to judge a work of art on its own merits - Gesualdo and Benvenuto Cellini were murderers but no one seems too bothered about that!

But is their music any good, are they even composers because I haven't heard of them!? I don't think Wagner's is regardless of his opinions. I confess I have stated before that if the composer is a wretch it will be revealed somehow, sooner or later, in his (or her!) output. Otherwise can we really say there is their no connection whatsoever between the composer's art and the composer's psyche?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-26-2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
But is their music any good, are they even composers because I haven't heard of them!? I don't think Wagner's is regardless of his opinions. I confess I have stated before that if the composer is a wretch it will be revealed somehow, sooner or later, in his (or her!) output. Otherwise can we really say there is their no connection whatsoever between the composer's art and the composer's psyche?

Cellini was a goldsmith, sculptor - his Perseus is one of the glories of Florentine art and his exquisite salt-cellar is the most important surviving example from the Italian renaissance. His autobiography is something of a classic having first been translated by Goethe.

Gesualdo who murdered his wife (so perhaps can be forgiven ) born in 1560 was one of the most important and adventurous of the italian madrigalists, his use of chromaticism going far beyond his contemporaries.

Aside from this, we know Beethoven was no saint - his reactions to both his brothers' wives and his treatment of his nephew are examples of this.

None of this has anything to do with the music - people are often shocked by the crudities in Mozart's letters precisely because they make this mistake.

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'Man know thyself'

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Rod:
I can add further assistance by stating B was not an antisemetic. So I suggest she looks for something else to write about.

Misleading statements like that can sometimes go a long way to discolor the true facts. The teacher should take up a profession that does not add fuel to misunderstanding, preferably not in the history or literature field.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

....None of this has anything to do with the music - people are often shocked by the crudities in Mozart's letters precisely because they make this mistake.

Well I cannot accept there is no link the mind and the art. Perhaps this is why I find so little of the art of music to my taste - the most elevated minds produce the most elevated art.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well I cannot accept there is no link the mind and the art. Perhaps this is why I find so little of the art of music to my taste - the most elevated minds produce the most elevated art.

Presumably you regard Beethoven as the most elevated, well as you know Beethoven had his share of character faults like the rest of us - I don't see how you can say he was more elevated than say Bach, Mozart or Brahms. You may prefer his music and regard him as a greater composer but I fail to see how you regard his mind as more elevated!

I'm surprised you taking this line of argument as I recall you defending my position on this on the old edepot forum - this is the old 19th century view that presented its geniuses as almost God-like in perfection, indeed it's the very reason Schindler destroyed many letters and conversation books.



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Presumably you regard Beethoven as the most elevated, well as you know Beethoven had his share of character faults like the rest of us - I don't see how you can say he was more elevated than say Bach, Mozart or Brahms. You may prefer his music and regard him as a greater composer but I fail to see how you regard his mind as more elevated!

I'm surprised you taking this line of argument as I recall you defending my position on this on the old edepot forum - this is the old 19th century view that presented its geniuses as almost God-like in perfection, indeed it's the very reason Schindler destroyed many letters and conversation books.

Being elevated is not the same as being perfect. Why is Fascist influenced art/sculpture/music mocked almost by default?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well I cannot accept there is no link the mind and the art. Perhaps this is why I find so little of the art of music to my taste - the most elevated minds produce the most elevated art.

Sorry Rod, but IMHO, that's crap. People are crude or refined in relation to THEIR surroundings, not OURS. Your particular standards of "elevation" didn't exist in Mozart's time, how or why should he live up to them? I am currently reading "Mozart: A Cultural Biography" by Robert Gutman. In comparison to his contemporaries, Mozart was a little better, no worse. People can only be judged in relation to their own environment, any attempt to put modern standards against historic contexts is doomed to failure because the basic premise is flawed.



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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[King Stephen]

Rod, I have noting to add except I am in total agreement with Gurn and Peter. According to your conjecture, if Beethoven's music reflected his life it might have tuned out to be second rate.

[Peter]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
Rod, I have noting to add except I am in total agreement with Gurn and Peter. According to your conjecture, if Beethoven's music reflected his life it might have tuned out to be second rate.

This is quite true - it is simply Beethoven's genius as a musician that marked him out amongst men, other than that he was probably little different from his brothers.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
This is quite true - it is simply Beethoven's genius as a musician that marked him out amongst men, other than that he was probably little different from his brothers.

I was clearly talking about the mind not the life. Beethoven may have been inadequate in various ways but he was characteristically sincere and honest, with noble intention. These qualities show, to me at least, in his compositions. I get this same latent impression with Handel which is one of the reasons why I am drawn to his music too. I don't get this sence from any other music to such a high degree. Are you saying only I can sence these things!?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-27-2004).]