The most obscene uses of classical music

[atserriotserri]

Originally posted by william jesset:


Interesting - also in that mix throw in the factor of having to be 'cutting edge',hence as you say "sound original" without,being really inovative,for by example extrapolating the exsisting harmonic framework in to something new.
As technology races to create new products for consumers, this is how music is expanding.
Last century the need for 'product' to fill the air wave has all but 'used up' any possible combination of chords to create song progression that seem fresh, hence the return to "modal",with parallel 5ths ,to the most basic of all, the 'pulse',the heartbeat of time.
What I question is "how will this 'machine'
(produced via the electric grid which in effect gives rise to the "Electric-city'that will all live in wordwide), how will that effect the human condition on a bio- cellular level? Withstanding the decibel issue,just the wave-forms, how does or how will that effect the future?
Thank You
Wm Jesset
Ps if you know of L.Coryell, I like to say that Pat Martino(fusion), is one who use's the "FUR ELISE" motif, in the sense that it pertains to a "scared geometry" that revels themselves on the fret board via shapes that resemble Triangles,cube's,Ie 'geometry'that are part of a Pythagorean concept of Polarity,Ie Yin/yang ,male/female ,easy/hard consonant/dissonant.

Interesting question you bring, but I guess the answer is very complicated. Decibel on electric concerts have a great effect on humans.
Certainly today is very hard to find some innovative music because of the need of a product you appoint. So one can experience a feeling of "deja vu" listening already any song, so you feel listening to "variations on a theme from ...." instead of a new song; and the more one expands the range of music styles he listens to, the more deja vu one may feel.
A an example I had a frightning feeling some time ago while listening for first time to the miles davis-john coltrane boxset (which is great), since I found myself saying "I've heard that before", I could recognize passages of songs in pop songs I heard when younger. Many tiny bits of different songs placed in a long, evolving and sometimes improvised structure, I guess became freezed and converted into a 3 min. song because someone thought they were "groovy", "catchy", etc... and perhaps thought "none of the guys listening radio formula will ever listen to miles".
Regarding Pat Martino, I haven't heard of him, but sound interesting. Joe Satriani, perhaps my favorite guitar player has a song called "Circles", referring to the pattern described on the fret board. Curious one.
Finally, I think Frank Zappa also experimented with some "logical" o patterned composing techniques in some of his records, but I'm not sure.

[Euterpe]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
The commercial topic brought this to mind...

There are perhaps many, but the most recent I remember is:

A commercial for a 'reality' MTV show about college Fraternities/Sororities. In it the screen is depicting college students engaged in the usual depraved activity - drinking, sex, breaking objects, acting ridiculous while intoxicated ect. Well during this onslaught of abject behaviour , Bachs Prelude in D Major for Cello is playing (in another version of the advertisement they play another piece, cant remember which). MTV seems to think its 'funny' to juxtapose an iconic example of sophistication on top of the lowest common denominator. To me its in extremely poor taste.

In general, I think the belittling of classical music to the status of empty, pedantic pretension by its depiction in the the context of caracatures, and people screaming in agony whenever they hear opera singing - is appalling. Apparently the current order (who control all media) do not like any semblance of the kind of system that classical music represents, so they poison it for every coming generation. Wow, what a subversive evil. Let me elaborate on why its evil for a moment. Great music, unlike anything else, can raise my spirits to a level of indescribable elation. It is an injection of life, but of no detriment to the human body or mind, only a refreshment of the spirit (as Bach would say). To glorify the application of prescribed drugs, but shun such a beautiful solution - is replacing a pure good, with a copout. The old order is withholding life from the youth out of fear. But there is more, and this is something I realized recently: It wouldnt be as bad if they literally witheld classical music by never exposing the youth to it. No, they condition the youth to detest it, Clockwork Orange style. This is even worse, because then they make the music impossibly out of reach. They quite nearly destroy the music. They destroy it at its very core - the psyche that could ever appreciate it. I dont think this is unintentional either. This may sound paranoid, but the 60s generation was all about destroying the 'establishment' in the name of a faux, misinterpreted neo-buddism, and I think now that they have taken power, they have nearly completed this goal. Some of the 'older' posters on this board may feel this is a little too dramatic a reality, but I have had everyday, direct, unfiltered contact with the most affected group by this new order. I have not met ONE person near my age (19) who likes classical music.

But to restate the intent of this post (it digressed into a cliche rant about the collapse of culture, as usual): Post a specific example of a missuse of classical music.

[This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited 07-17-2004).]

On the up side, the human race still plays Bach after all these years. I am not a classical music "expert" but I have served on the Board of Directors for chamber music organizations and have worked in classical music broadcasting. From my experience, it is not what you want to call the "misuse" of classical music that is alienating young people from this art form. It is the people with attitudes like the people here who alienate the general population. There remains an air of arrogance and inflexibility among the classical music population. It speaks even more loudly through some on this board, especially among the young ones who try so desperately to sound like geniuses. Many of you are so caught up in your intellectual superiority-complexes you fail to recognize your diminished ability to laugh at life and to willingly accept new listeners into the classical music culture. Yet, some of you complain that, at 19, you can’t find anyone else your age who likes classical music…well create some friends who appreciate classical music! To do that, however, you’ll need to develop friends. I’m in my late 30s and even I wouldn’t want to hang out with you – you don’t strike me as hip enough quite frankly. In an effort to attract younger audiences to opera, one organization from my home town decided to forgo the elaborate costume and stage sets for an opera. They put the singers in street clothes then handed out free tickets. My friend of eighteen years, who had lived a life of poverty with little education, attended. She left early because she was disappointed. Arts organizations just do not "get it." If they want to attract a large, young, vibrant audience, they need to eradicate the pretentiousness that pervades the art music culture not alter stage sets and costumes. One doesn't need to be a snob to be smart or to appreciate Beethoven. It is funny that you spoke of pretension because that is exactly the impression I get from many of you. If I were a stranger to classical music, I’d be turned off. If Mozart were posting here he’d probably challenge everyone to a farting contest, so……. Lighten up kids!

[Euterpe]

[quote]Originally posted by william jesset:

Originally posted by atserriotserri:
. Would you consider an obscene use of classical music the following examples?:

...heavy metal band Accept plays an excerpt of fur elise as a guitar solo in a song called Metal Head.

The swedish guitarist, Yngwie Malmsteen on the credits of already all his records thanks Paganini, Monteverdi, C.P.E. Bach, J.S. Bach, Vivaldi and depending on the record, other composers (I can hear some evident traces of Paganini in some riffs).

Rainbow's song Difficult to Cure (whose guitarist is Ritchie Blackmore, now making medieval folk songs), quotes Beethoven's Ode to Joy with an altered meter and a new introduction, finishing with sounds of laughter.

William writes

I say Bravo, of course, no matter what music genre you have performers with instrumental talents 'borrow' motifs from any source, to expand their 'vocabulary'.
If you really study jazz/ jazz standards/jazz players, especialy eary Jazz, you will see that most likely the first instuction tutor they had was Klose' or Czerny etc. The "FUR ELISE" motif is source material for improvisation,as is just about anything that was 'dicovered' by the Masters Bach, Beethoven etc.All the cadences etc, became popular songs from 1830 on.

The new music/harmony/(rock etc) is based on scales not Chords and it sounds like it, but the point is the artists you mentioned, as with any MUSICIAN who wants a career, they have to establish their place in the food chain of their profession and they do that by gimmicks. By association with Paganini they now have "cred" as to their own talent as 'virtuoso'. Even Paganini had to raise public awareness of his talents before his fame.
This is just music as business.

I see nothing wrong in emulation of classical motifs and harmony as its a part of the cycle of all things to come back full circle from the past to become part of the new.
My question is "what do you feel about electronic sounds/drum machines as opposed to acoustic wave forms?"
Wm Jesset

Yngwie became a victim of his own arrogance. He had potential but really messed it up. What irked me is he performed Albinoni on his first recording and never gave him credit. He attempted to pull the piece off as his own work figuring no one in rock music would find it out. I wouldn't call it obscene but it was very dishonorable of him.

[william jesset]

Originally posted by Euterpe:
Yngwie became a victim of his own arrogance. He had potential but really messed it up. What irked me is he performed Albinoni on his first recording and never gave him credit. He attempted to pull the piece off as his own work figuring no one in rock music would find it out. I wouldn't call it obscene but it was very dishonorable of him.

William responds :
Nothing is new when it come to 12 tones-
benefit of the doubt- quite possibly Mr.Y.M.
learned this 'motif' from 'outside sources' during his devolopment ,or from recall of past lessons without the memory of the original source involved.
However, the most important aspect is your astute sense of hearing.Bravo for you to pick up on the faux pax.
Wm Jesset

[Euterpe]

Originally posted by william jesset:
William responds :
Nothing is new when it come to 12 tones-
benefit of the doubt- quite possibly Mr.Y.M.
learned this 'motif' from 'outside sources' during his devolopment ,or from recall of past lessons without the memory of the original source involved.
However, the most important aspect is your astute sense of hearing.Bravo for you to pick up on the faux pax.
Wm Jesset

You are being very generous and forgiving when you say Y.M. may have learned of the piece from outside sources. I shall not give him the benefit of such doubt. The Albinoni piece off Ynwie's debut "Rising Force" album entitled "Icarius' Dream Suite Opus 4" is so clearly a direct copy of the melody by Albinoni it can hardly be considered a variation. The melody is as clear as any rock version of Bach's Air on G String. At first I though Y.M. to be quite a "composer" until I stood in the office of the classical music station I used to work at. While thumbing through my paperwork the dj began to play a beautiful and oddly familar piece. I have to laugh today remembering back. It actually took me a while to figure out where I'd heard the piece before. We can all cleary see why the star of the neo-classical rock guitarists of the 80s rock music scene quickly faded.

[atserriotserri]

Originally posted by Euterpe:

You are being very generous and forgiving when you say Y.M. may have learned of the piece from outside sources. I shall not give him the benefit of such doubt. The Albinoni piece off Ynwie's debut "Rising Force" album entitled "Icarius' Dream Suite Opus 4" is so clearly a direct copy of the melody by Albinoni it can hardly be considered a variation. The melody is as clear as any rock version of Bach's Air on G String. At first I though Y.M. to be quite a "composer" until I stood in the office of the classical music station I used to work at. While thumbing through my paperwork the dj began to play a beautiful and oddly familar piece. I have to laugh today remembering back. It actually took me a while to figure out where I'd heard the piece before. We can all cleary see why the star of the neo-classical rock guitarists of the 80s rock music scene quickly faded.

I'm quite forgiving with Yngwie, but after each day I'm less. I attended at a concert of him and was perhaps the worst concert I ever attended, too much beer takes you to too many mistakes. Plus, always the same scales make you repetitive if you're not a clever skilled composer.
Their star faded quicky, I guess, because they played well but with some inconsistencies and their composition skills generally speaking were weak (too many evident & uncredited uses of music from other composers).

[Euterpe]

Originally posted by atserriotserri:
I'm quite forgiving with Yngwie, but after each day I'm less. I attended at a concert of him and was perhaps the worst concert I ever attended, too much beer takes you to too many mistakes. Plus, always the same scales make you repetitive if you're not a clever skilled composer.
Their star faded quicky, I guess, because they played well but with some inconsistencies and their composition skills generally speaking were weak (too many evident & uncredited uses of music from other composers).

Yes indeed, Yngwie has a serious drinking problem. His orignal band was much better than any replacements that is for sure. On the other hand, I would recommend seeing Joe Satriani whenever you get the chance. I saw him open for Deep Purple and he was fabulous. Blew me away.

[atserriotserri]

Originally posted by Euterpe:
Yes indeed, Yngwie has a serious drinking problem. His orignal band was much better than any replacements that is for sure. On the other hand, I would recommend seeing Joe Satriani whenever you get the chance. I saw him open for Deep Purple and he was fabulous. Blew me away.

I've seen satriani any single time he has played in Barcelona, Spain. He's amazing! I will never forget the first song I saw live: Flying in a blue dream. He stood still, sound crisp clear, just moved his hands gently...
I also saw him with Deep Purple in Barcelona. I remember one of my friends say: "I'm quite reluctant about Satriani, he'll make his show and will not integrate with the band". He performed amazingly. Sadly (very sadly), under my point of view, he's run out of ideas. His best point for me, high standard as a composer compared to the competence, is decaying, each record is more irregular than the latter since "engines of creation".

[Beyond Within]

Alexi Laiho of 'Children of Bodom', achieves far more with the neo-classical style than Yngwie Malmsteen. He doesn't just transcribe famous classical licks to the electric guitar; he maintains the classical spirit, but with his own, completely original melodies.

Buy "Follow the Reaper", if you want to know what I am talking about. He is the best neo-classical shred guitarist I have heard. Alex Skolnick is a close second, but his melodies aren't nearly as good.

I have tried really hard, amongst my 'metal' friends, to spread Classical music in the humblest ways possible. I didn't bash their music or anything, I just told them to please give it a try. It does nothing every single time.

You assumed far too much in your post about me; nobody headbangs more violently than I do at a Blind Guardian concert.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
[B]... neo-classical shred guitarist...B]

neo-classical shred guitarist?

[Beyond Within]

What exactly are you asking for?

If a definition is what you seek, that would be impossible to supply, beyond pointing to musical examples.

I will attempt to give you some idea: Electric guitarists, who instead of using the usual pentatonic, 'rock scale,' they use musical devises which sound characteristic of classical music. They also incorporate a pronounced staccato approach to all of their playing. I think the most striking technique is 'sweep picking.' It is this way of playing arpeggios on guitar without any of the notes ringing into each other. It sounds very, very classical. These guitarists also extensively use pedal point licks, long elaborate melodic patterns, and tapping chord progressions that have a distinct baroque sound to them.

Yngwie Malmsteen was the first guitarist to really take this to the extreme and put it all together. Yes, people like Eddy Van Halen noodled with it before hand, but nobody before Malmsteen made a complete style out of it. Eddy Van Halen still sounded like a virtuosic blues player; there were a few salient classical music moments (tapping, primarily) but it was subsidiary to the overall blues sound.

Malmsteen has been stuck in Rising Force for 20 years and really needs to move on. Although, I must say that "Baroque & Roll" is highly enjoyable. It also serves a great picking exercise.

Check out Alexi Laiho: his uses of Sweep Picking and the Whammy bar are brilliant.

[This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited 11-05-2004).]

[spaceray]

Many thanks for the explaination.

[atserriotserri]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
Alexi Laiho of 'Children of Bodom', achieves far more with the neo-classical style than Yngwie Malmsteen. He doesn't just transcribe famous classical licks to the electric guitar; he maintains the classical spirit, but with his own, completely original melodies.

Buy "Follow the Reaper", if you want to know what I am talking about. He is the best neo-classical shred guitarist I have heard. Alex Skolnick is a close second, but his melodies aren't nearly as good.

I have tried really hard, amongst my 'metal' friends, to spread Classical music in the humblest ways possible. I didn't bash their music or anything, I just told them to please give it a try. It does nothing every single time.

You assumed far too much in your post about me; nobody headbangs more violently than I do at a Blind Guardian concert.

Sounds interesting that Alexi Laiho, I'll look after the record you mention...

A good friend of mine and me have tried also to spread classical music amongst friends. He started playing violin (he was quite good) got injured and discovered electric guitar. We both love Bach and Beethoven, but the first work we play to any heavy metal-only fan asking about classical music is Brahms' concert for piano & orchestra no.1 (op. 85). That start makes them surrender!

[Beyond Within]

hahaha that is so coincidental....

Very recently, a heavy-metal obsessed friend of mine became infatuated with that Brahms Concerto. It is the only piece of classical music he said has ever interested him.

I must keep these things in mind.

[william jesset]

Gentleman - as it seems the topic now, is Musicians who 'shred'.
Why not investigate Django Reinhardt or my teacher- Pat Martino.
My opinion only-But here are two artists who need not rely on "tricks'to create.
Joe Pass is marvelous just for his sense of harmony.
Thank You
Wm Jesset