The most obscene uses of classical music

[v russo]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
v.
Sadly, you are so right. Not only is being outstanding "not encouraged", it is actively discouraged. One wouldn't want to make one's "peers" feel badly by outdoing them in any significant, non-athletic sort of way, for example, by listening to Beethoven instead of Madonna. Now, I am depressed. You really need to quit pointing this stuff out. I'm going to go listen to my Evita soundtrack, you b*&^%$# !

..hey, try some ENO..... escapist music will help in these cases!





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v russo

[ruudp]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
v.
Sadly, you are so right. Not only is being outstanding "not encouraged", it is actively discouraged. One wouldn't want to make one's "peers" feel badly by outdoing them in any significant, non-athletic sort of way, for example, by listening to Beethoven instead of Madonna. Now, I am depressed. You really need to quit pointing this stuff out. I'm going to go listen to my Evita soundtrack, you b*&^%$# !

that's right indeed gurn.
Just this weekend buddies from my friend were also on the beach *they all are athlets* and they asked what sport I did..Since I can't do any sport due to medical reasons I Said to them I was a musician and they looked at me with amazement and then shrugging their shoulders went on about their sacrifices for the sport and how heavy it was..I then replied by saying that music is a TOP-SPORT aswell and explaining the amount of energy,drive,motivation and phsycical heartiness It requires to be an able musician..they backed away soon after I halted my monologue looking at me in wonder..never had they knewn music could be "work" aswell..Their amazement grew As I told them I was a singer/pianoplayer/percussionplayer and a *rooky gotta learn alot* composer..
They only did one disicpline and start looking at me differently..lucky for me the contempt*is that a good expression of disrespect??*the had for me lessened..
Regards,
Ruud

[Gurn Blanston]

Ruud,
Well, of course what you are saying is that their contempt was born of ignorance, and this is almost always the case. I think the problem in our society is that the drive to "cure" the inorance is not there, instead we are willing to take the easy way out and accept the ignorance, and attacking those who choose to NOT be ignorant is the way that the majority justify themselves. Being stupid is beyond our control, it is a genetic thing. Being ignorant is totally within our control. We are only stupid if we choose not to correct our ignorance.


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[ruudp]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Ruud,
Well, of course what you are saying is that their contempt was born of ignorance, and this is almost always the case. I think the problem in our society is that the drive to "cure" the inorance is not there, instead we are willing to take the easy way out and accept the ignorance, and attacking those who choose to NOT be ignorant is the way that the majority justify themselves. Being stupid is beyond our control, it is a genetic thing. Being ignorant is totally within our control. We are only stupid if we choose not to correct our ignorance.

that's SOOO right indeed..
my best friend is a guy who in all due respect isn't the brightest kind of fellow..although he's very good with his hands he isn't very smart the pure intellectual way..he's been called stupid because of that many times in which case I defend him with tooth and nail *often with succes*.BUT this friend also had a prejudice and commercially fed HATRED against classical music..soo I slowly introduced into the world of classical music..Although he won't put on a cd of a classical composer his thoughts about classical music changed DRASTICALLY he even is FOND of some *beethoven who else* pieces and his favourite musical piece is the 3th movement of the sonata Kv.331 in A major from mozart the rondo better known as the alla turca..
soo ingnorance is indeed at the rooth of hatred mockery and contempt of the classical music.

Regards,
Ruud

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by v russo:
Why is the term that is used for intentionally shocking or bad taste...the lowest common denominator? That term in itself has a 'political correctness' to it that smells like B.S. to me. The lowest common denominator can be many things, yet, in contemporary society it is often calculated and executed low moral behavior in various ways.

I disagree that the term 'lowest common demoninator' is inappropriate and politically correct. On the contrary I think the concept is a sharp critique and rejection of PC thinking. Since PC dogma states not only that every person is equal, but also that every form of human behaviour is equal, then the only form of behaviour that is unacceptable is that which claims to be superior. So all human excellence must be abolished. High art and high culture must be abolished because it is 'elitist' - in other words it judges human behaviour and considers that some forms of behaviour and achievement are more worthy than others. So we are left with a culture in which we all must drag ourselves down to the lowest level of humanity, in order not to offend anyone. TV, music, and general popular entertainment must all pander to the oafish moron, and the more sensitive and intelligent person is expected to 'chill out' and stop being so stuffy.

[jahara]

Hello all! I've been lurking for quite a while, but this subject speaks to my own heart.

My first experience with Beethoven came from a t.v. commercial which was trying to sell answering machine messages. Even today, I still sing the tune on occassion. I first associated Beethoven's 9th with another t.v. commercial. Pop culture is replete with instances where some company employs works of art (not limited to music)to sell a product or an idea. In my view, this is not a totally bad thing. In fact, lots of good may come out of it.

My introduction to classical music did not come from the music hall. It didn't come from sitting with my parents around the record player. It came from Bugs Bunny. Looney Toons implanted a seed which took almost twenty years to blossom into a full grown love for classical music. I still laugh because this is where Bugs pours tonic on Elmer's head and the daisies grow or this is where the ants have crawled onto the sheet of music while Daffy is playing the piano. I'm thrilled everytime I recognize a piece on the radio that I first heard watching cartoons.

The point is, even if any piece of music is used in the most crass way imaginable, this can still be a good thing. To those who already appreciate the piece, the value won't be lessened. Those who will never hear the piece outside of the commercial, won't notice it's passing. However, there is always the chance that some soul will hear the music and be moved to learn more about the piece and find that a whole new world will open up before them.

I personally would like to thank, Warner Bros., the Simpsons and even that stupid little jingle for nudging me in the right direction.

Jaime

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
I disagree that the term 'lowest common demoninator' is inappropriate and politically correct. On the contrary I think the concept is a sharp critique and rejection of PC thinking. Since PC dogma states not only that every person is equal, but also that every form of human behaviour is equal, then the only form of behaviour that is unacceptable is that which claims to be superior. So all human excellence must be abolished. High art and high culture must be abolished because it is 'elitist' - in other words it judges human behaviour and considers that some forms of behaviour and achievement are more worthy than others. So we are left with a culture in which we all must drag ourselves down to the lowest level of humanity, in order not to offend anyone. TV, music, and general popular entertainment must all pander to the oafish moron, and the more sensitive and intelligent person is expected to 'chill out' and stop being so stuffy.

I agree with Steppenwolf that the phrase 'lowest common denominator' is the antithesis of political correctness.
I suppose we can simply say that it is part and parcel of what has been called 'dumbing down'. I am struck with the phrase used previously that modern society is geared towards making us better consumers, not better individuals. In one sense there is nothing particularly objectionable I find, provided that what Wordsworth calls, 'the little battalions' ie. community and local institutions are in place. The sad thing is of course in today's world they are fast disappearing and we seem to be left with just a competitive consumer society. This I guess is where classical music comes in and where we can I think legitimately look for a Renaissance in human values, culture etc. Lets hope so!.



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~ Unsterbliche Geliebte ~

[atserriotserri]

Hi everyone, I've registered a second ago, once I recovered of the shock caused by finding this website and BB: Wow, dreams became real!

I'll go straight to the point: Clockwork orange: I find that movie interesting and I'll try to summarize my thoughts:

1. Anyone may like, admire or recognize the artistic value of music or any other art; whether we like it or not: The Anthony Burgess' book if full with references to classical composers and works: Bach (Brandenburg concerts), Mozart (Jupiter), Glitterfenster (Das Bettzeug) I've never heard of him besides the book (?), Bach, Handel, Beethoven specially his 9th symphony... and the main character criticizes the pop music a couple of times.

2. I guess the movie opens many different interpretations, my one is that all impositions and cliches are wrong and bad because if one not applies time, pedagogy, etc..., everything, including masterpieces of music, may and will be used for what one may consider "perverted" ends. Simply what happens in the movie is that a government body applicates a silogism: beethoven good, that guy bad, imposition-torture with beethoven will make him good. Why? just because they don't expect such an individual to like Beethoven because they move by cliches.
In other words, under my point of view the obscene use of music on the film is by the system that pretends use some of the best creations of mankind to brainwash a guy, not by a hoolingan depicted there that liked music.

On the other hand I remember the reactions when Barenboim played (or planned to play, I don't remember) Wagner in Israel and there were people that wanted to ban him from playing Wagner. There Barenboim got all my credit: Music is music and I don't look at who seats besides me on a theater or next to me looking the same records; there are thousands of white collar criminals, dictators, corrupt politicians and worse... going to opera houses and we keep listening to what we listen, ain't we?

[~Immortal Beloved~]

[quote]Originally posted by william jesset:
[b]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
The commercial topic brought this to mind...

There are perhaps many, but the most recent I remember is:

A commercial for a 'reality' MTV show about college Fraternities/Sororities. In it the screen is depicting college students engaged in the usual depraved activity - drinking, sex, breaking objects, acting ridiculous while intoxicated ect. Well during this onslaught of abject behaviour , Bachs Prelude in D Major for Cello is playing (in another version of the advertisement they play another piece, cant remember which). MTV seems to think its 'funny' to juxtapose an iconic example of sophistication on top of the lowest common denominator. To me its in extremely poor taste.

In general, I think the belittling of classical music to the status of empty, pedantic pretension by its depiction in the the context of caracatures, and people screaming in agony whenever they hear opera singing - is appalling. Apparently the current order (who control all media) do not like any semblance of the kind of system that classical music represents, so they poison it for every coming generation. Wow, what a subversive evil. Let me elaborate on why its evil for a moment. Great music, unlike anything else, can raise my spirits to a level of indescribable elation. It is an injection of life, but of no detriment to the human body or mind, only a refreshment of the spirit (as Bach would say). To glorify the application of prescribed drugs, but shun such a beautiful solution - is replacing a pure good, with a copout. The old order is withholding life from the youth out of fear. But there is more, and this is something I realized recently: It wouldnt be as bad if they literally witheld classical music by never exposing the youth to it. No, they condition the youth to detest it, Clockwork Orange style. This is even worse, because then they make the music impossibly out of reach. They quite nearly destroy the music. They destroy it at its very core - the psyche that could ever appreciate it. I dont think this is unintentional either. This may sound paranoid, but the 60s generation was all about destroying the 'establishment' in the name of a faux, misinterpreted neo-buddism, and I think now that they have taken power, they have nearly completed this goal. Some of the 'older' posters on this board may feel this is a little too dramatic a reality, but I have had everyday, direct, unfiltered contact with the most affected group by this new order. I have not met ONE person near my age (19) who likes classical music.

But to restate the intent of this post (it digressed into a cliche rant about the collapse of culture, as usual): Post a specific example of a missuse of classical music.

Once More I must address this issue,Popular culture has always been so. Classical music
was basicly composed for a King/people of high noble bearing. I too have a direct contact with youth and people mature in AGE only. Understand? Wisdom knows no boundaries,
and is not a given at ANY age.
First, change your enviroment,aka turn MTV/TV off! Just what had you hoped to find there? Beethovens remix? haha You can do it,as from everyone's posts, you seem aware. Whats lacking? Action,please stop pointing the blame elsewhere. I was there(6os) and yes, too much of nothing happened from it except old burn outs still thinking Meat is bad etc etc. Nothing to do except be thankful YOU have made your choice,
and can see the alternative's.
This is a truth as I've experienced. If all you see is bad junk,you need to take the blinders off to see good. Neo- buddism?
No as nothing is new. The proof, is you sound exactly like the hippys rant of "they have the power". They have always had the power,
and its all moot, as they will still have the power.
Stereotypes are a constant as based in truth,the college student since the Bards time have always been
portrayed as drunken rabble. As they are and will always be such. Or the book loving nerd listening to classical. Who cares? Just be yourself. As to the use of Classical music,
NO matter what form, its not a belittlement at all. Its the UNIVERSE exposing the good for you to see along with the bad. This is a cosmic truth of balance. Enjoy it thats all I
ask or have to say.As I think more of it, it's high art to laugh and the thought of some kid high on hormones,while drunk,breaking his tailbone while skateboarding to Bach,thats genius. Bach is laughing also,you just have to. If not "they'
won,who would ever of thought, Bach on MTV!!
My god! its the best of times with the worst.
It's not poisonious, it's homage, plain and simple and only reinforces the status of Classicial per se to the High art it is and always will be.
Thank You Thank You ,as I have a glorious insight Thanks to You
delightful new understand - and I am made
aware only thru YOU, my Intellegent friend
Sincrely your student as I look forward to the next junture
William Jesset

I so agree with you, people will not destroy truth of classical music! Nice post!

[atserriotserri]

Just to raise some debate (come on it's friday!)... Would you consider an obscene use of classical music the following examples?:

The heavy metal band Accept plays/played (think they're retired) an excerpt of fur elise as a guitar solo in a song called Metal Head.

The swedish guitar "virtuoso" (skilled guitarist, irregular composer to say it politely) Yngwie Malmsteen on the credits of already all his records thanks Paganini, Monteverdi, C.P.E. Bach, J.S. Bach, Vivaldi and depending on the record, other composers (I can hear some evident traces of Paganini in some riffs).

Rainbow's song Difficult to Cure (whose guitarist is Ritchie Blackmore, now making medieval folk songs), quotes Beethoven's Ode to Joy with an altered meter and a new introduction, finishing with sounds of laughter.

[william jesset]

Originally posted by ~Immortal Beloved~:
I so agree with you, people will not destroy truth of classical music! Nice post!

Thank you for your comments,and the compliment to my response to the original post.

Wm Jesset

[william jesset]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by atserriotserri:
. Would you consider an obscene use of classical music the following examples?:

...heavy metal band Accept plays an excerpt of fur elise as a guitar solo in a song called Metal Head.

The swedish guitarist, Yngwie Malmsteen on the credits of already all his records thanks Paganini, Monteverdi, C.P.E. Bach, J.S. Bach, Vivaldi and depending on the record, other composers (I can hear some evident traces of Paganini in some riffs).

Rainbow's song Difficult to Cure (whose guitarist is Ritchie Blackmore, now making medieval folk songs), quotes Beethoven's Ode to Joy with an altered meter and a new introduction, finishing with sounds of laughter.

William writes

I say Bravo, of course, no matter what music genre you have performers with instrumental talents 'borrow' motifs from any source, to expand their 'vocabulary'.
If you really study jazz/ jazz standards/jazz players, especialy eary Jazz, you will see that most likely the first instuction tutor they had was Klose' or Czerny etc. The "FUR ELISE" motif is source material for improvisation,as is just about anything that was 'dicovered' by the Masters Bach, Beethoven etc.All the cadences etc, became popular songs from 1830 on.

The new music/harmony/(rock etc) is based on scales not Chords and it sounds like it, but the point is the artists you mentioned, as with any MUSICIAN who wants a career, they have to establish their place in the food chain of their profession and they do that by gimmicks. By association with Paganini they now have "cred" as to their own talent as 'virtuoso'. Even Paganini had to raise public awareness of his talents before his fame.
This is just music as business.

I see nothing wrong in emulation of classical motifs and harmony as its a part of the cycle of all things to come back full circle from the past to become part of the new.
My question is "what do you feel about electronic sounds/drum machines as opposed to acoustic wave forms?"
Wm Jesset

[~Immortal Beloved~]

Originally posted by william jesset:
Thank you for your comments,and the compliment to my response to the original post.

Wm Jesset

Anytime William

[atserriotserri]

Originally posted by william jesset:

William writes

I say Bravo, of course, no matter what music genre you have performers with instrumental talents 'borrow' motifs from any source, to expand their 'vocabulary'.
If you really study jazz/ jazz standards/jazz players, especialy eary Jazz, you will see that most likely the first instuction tutor they had was Klose' or Czerny etc. The "FUR ELISE" motif is source material for improvisation,as is just about anything that was 'dicovered' by the Masters Bach, Beethoven etc.All the cadences etc, became popular songs from 1830 on.

The new music/harmony/(rock etc) is based on scales not Chords and it sounds like it, but the point is the artists you mentioned, as with any MUSICIAN who wants a career, they have to establish their place in the food chain of their profession and they do that by gimmicks. By association with Paganini they now have "cred" as to their own talent as 'virtuoso'. Even Paganini had to raise public awareness of his talents before his fame.
This is just music as business.

I see nothing wrong in emulation of classical motifs and harmony as its a part of the cycle of all things to come back full circle from the past to become part of the new.
My question is "what do you feel about electronic sounds/drum machines as opposed to acoustic wave forms?"
Wm Jesset[/B]

Drum machines? My first thought is "ugghh!", but there are some reputed drummers-percussionists experimenting with drum machines. One example is Bill Brufford (king crimson, blue, earthworks): I've seen him live and listen to his music in the wide frame of styles he plays (prog-rock & hard rock with king crimson and blue, jazz -I attended a concert in my hometown Barcelona where he played with larry coryell-, jazz-fussion...) and really don't see the need to play with some drum machines he plays, but I think is an exercise for the musician himself, as you said, to expand his vocabulary and/or have more options. Hence more, as always, the same instruments or tools in wise hands may create special music, but in mediocre hands... That's why I said "ugh!".
Electronic sounds...? My opinion is that they're just that, sounds. The question is: what do you do with electronic sounds? Some people think that the mere use of electronic sounds-instruments is original, is "classy", is "good", even though they're repeating an average or standard pop song, jazz song or classical mood (with respect to "classical mood, my goth rock equation applicable to 95% of bands: goth rock band= hard rock band not particularly skilled + standard production & guitar distortion + copy/paste the same organ/piano/violin chords or orchestral arrangements found on a classical music on a nut shell cd). I think that one of the main problems with today's music (besides the "business" that lowers the average), is that to be considered a "landmark" you don't have to really create original, personal music, but simply to "sound" original. Example: the mere addition of some electronic (sometimes repetitive) sounds to a hard rock-punk song made a curious, perhaps interesting band like Nine Inch Nails one of the most influential names in '90s music. I listen eventually to hard rock (find it far more interesting, authentic and generally more intrincate than pop music), but that IS DEPRESSING, sadly, it's even more depressing that NIN is still far above the average.

[william jesset]

Interesting - also in that mix throw in the factor of having to be 'cutting edge',hence as you say "sound original" without,being really inovative,for by example extrapolating the exsisting harmonic framework in to something new.
As technology races to create new products for consumers, this is how music is expanding.
Last century the need for 'product' to fill the air wave has all but 'used up' any possible combination of chords to create song progression that seem fresh, hence the return to "modal",with parallel 5ths ,to the most basic of all, the 'pulse',the heartbeat of time.
What I question is "how will this 'machine'
(produced via the electric grid which in effect gives rise to the "Electric-city'that will all live in wordwide), how will that effect the human condition on a bio- cellular level? Withstanding the decibel issue,just the wave-forms, how does or how will that effect the future?
Thank You
Wm Jesset
Ps if you know of L.Coryell, I like to say that Pat Martino(fusion), is one who use's the "FUR ELISE" motif, in the sense that it pertains to a "scared geometry" that revels themselves on the fret board via shapes that resemble Triangles,cube's,Ie 'geometry'that are part of a Pythagorean concept of Polarity,Ie Yin/yang ,male/female ,easy/hard consonant/dissonant.