The most obscene uses of classical music

[Beyond Within]

The commercial topic brought this to mind...

There are perhaps many, but the most recent I remember is:

A commercial for a 'reality' MTV show about college Fraternities/Sororities. In it the screen is depicting college students engaged in the usual depraved activity - drinking, sex, breaking objects, acting ridiculous while intoxicated ect. Well during this onslaught of abject behaviour , Bachs Prelude in D Major for Cello is playing (in another version of the advertisement they play another piece, cant remember which). MTV seems to think its 'funny' to juxtapose an iconic example of sophistication on top of the lowest common denominator. To me its in extremely poor taste.

In general, I think the belittling of classical music to the status of empty, pedantic pretension by its depiction in the the context of caracatures, and people screaming in agony whenever they hear opera singing - is appalling. Apparently the current order (who control all media) do not like any semblance of the kind of system that classical music represents, so they poison it for every coming generation. Wow, what a subversive evil. Let me elaborate on why its evil for a moment. Great music, unlike anything else, can raise my spirits to a level of indescribable elation. It is an injection of life, but of no detriment to the human body or mind, only a refreshment of the spirit (as Bach would say). To glorify the application of prescribed drugs, but shun such a beautiful solution - is replacing a pure good, with a copout. The old order is withholding life from the youth out of fear. But there is more, and this is something I realized recently: It wouldnt be as bad if they literally witheld classical music by never exposing the youth to it. No, they condition the youth to detest it, Clockwork Orange style. This is even worse, because then they make the music impossibly out of reach. They quite nearly destroy the music. They destroy it at its very core - the psyche that could ever appreciate it. I dont think this is unintentional either. This may sound paranoid, but the 60s generation was all about destroying the 'establishment' in the name of a faux, misinterpreted neo-buddism, and I think now that they have taken power, they have nearly completed this goal. Some of the 'older' posters on this board may feel this is a little too dramatic a reality, but I have had everyday, direct, unfiltered contact with the most affected group by this new order. I have not met ONE person near my age (19) who likes classical music.

But to restate the intent of this post (it digressed into a cliche rant about the collapse of culture, as usual): Post a specific example of a missuse of classical music.



[This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited 07-17-2004).]

[Steppenwolf]

I agree 100% with your post. You raise problems that have been quite well dealt with by Alan Bloom, in his famous book, 'Closing of the American Mind'.If you are interested in the problems you mention I would urge you to track it down. Another to have dealt with the subject is the British writer Roger Scruton, in particular his book 'An Intelligent Person's Guide to Modern Culture', and 'The Aesthetics of Music'. Scruton is sometimes dismissed as a rabid reactionary, but you have to admit that there is some truth in his argument that dumbed-down pop culture is ruining high culture.

Back to the main subject of the thread.

There is a rap song that came out a few years ago which used the theme to Beethoven's 5th. Horrifying.

I also notice the media will play the Ode to Joy chorus from the 9th to just about everything - from backing to highlights of a football game, to adverts for toothpaste. The 9th was the triumph of the ideals of the Enlightenment, one of mankinds highest achievements, and I find it really obscene that it is so trivialised. Great artworks should not, in my opinion, be exploited in a commercial context. To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, modern mass-consumerist pop culture knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing.

[Amalie]

Oh Brave New World, such creatures that are in it!

As I have thought many times, the book -Brave New World by Aldous Huxley best describes western society nowaday's.
There is a kind of poverty of aspiration in society and classical music whith its majestic and enobling sweep simply does not fit into the new dispensation.
Still, we have to keep plugging the message and not give up that classical music is incomparably greater than other music.
I am sure there are many other teenagers interested in classical music. One of the things it does reqiure however, is the courage to switch off from pervasive contemporary culture around us.
The media today, suggests that it is too challenging and therefore must bring it down to the lowest common denominator.

I know we don't wish to infect our ears listening to trash culture shredding the classics, but here is an example of Beethoven's 5th being mangled! http://www.greatkat.com/54/composers.html

This kind of thing has been happening for years.
Let us take heart and end on a hopefull note. Classical music will always survive! and who knows, with the right conditions we might see a Renaissance of Classical music listening.
Don't forget the vast numbers of CM CD's that ARE being sold.




[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 07-18-2004).]

[Chris]

Beyond Within, I think you may have taken it a little too far, but are mostly correct. It's sad, but that's the way things seem to be right now.

I'm not THAT much older than you, and I know a lot of people who like classical music. And most of them I met when I was your age or younger. You just have to be around the right kind of people.

Beyond Within, are you male or female? I've noticed that a lot more men than women start coming around to classical music around ages 18-20. If you are female, this could explain your situation (unless you have mostly male friends).

[spaceray]

In downtown Victoria we have a big problem with vagrants and vagrant wannabes on the main streets,just too many of them in a small concentrated area.Our main economic machine is tourisim and visitors do not care for the rabble.Classical music is piped out from loudspeakers outside of McDonalds to prevent people from congregating.
Is this an obscene use of CM?It's very pleasant for me awaiting the bus.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, cultural abuses abound, we shan't change them a whit even with a well-justified rant. So I won't. Don't believe for a second that I approve thereby.
However, the most obscene use of classical music is how the Nazis used it to flame the fans of Teutonism before and during their rise to power, as though Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms, or even Wagner would have approved of their twisted behavior simply in the name of German Nationalism. I prefer to believe that these freedom-loving and politically aware individuals would have decried the use of their names and art for this purpose.


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[william jesset]

Brave New World Indeed !
Its my pleasure once more to behold the intelligence that is demonstated here,as I think I have an better idea now as to the age demographics/group.
I myself find myself as old(ha) as the recent news?,as expounded by the media as to the age of rock'n'roll . Hence I can speak as one who's whole experience is with the mass produced product. Before a 'recording' was product,but that has been replaced by a much more insidious form of composition. That of intentional "dumbing down' of your thought processes. Ie. to keep control of you, NOT to think or question values, to consume the product. I have talked to, meet with some of the "jazz'/classical musicians who, to raise a familiy worked behind the scenes/studios in the 60's ala 'the Monkees' because of thier skills in reading/improvising. Too much money involved to just let some 'one hit wonder' run amok in the studio$. Songwriters etc., do you really think Ms Spears and those before and since really have any control? These same musicians for hire, now live in a personal Hell of regret. As to what has happened to the music, the cause and effect of their actions,who knew,who would think?

The ironic is Ads still use classical/style
music to sell to an older market. Ironic also is all the scenarios you've desribed as an 'attempt'to hold back the truth via good music. Heres the GOOD news,they cannot destroy TRUTH, as we roll forward to a science fiction future as has already been shown to us ala books and cinema.In essence the same 'forces' at play that you feel are working against you are also working with you. Understand ?Polarity is the spin phrase to that understanding.

My children-YES good music,intellegence is ELITIST. You bet once more due to polarity,for without the idiots, you'd have no referance point for genius. You must relax and by the good example you set in your life change will come. As its really out of your hands,except you have to see that YOU are the future and the music is within you. Each time you play a CD, your piano, even to
speak mellifluously, you set the balance so.
Are you Musical? or discordant?
Please NOT to worry,"they" whoever they are,tried in the 60's, a time of worldwide student protest,to cancel free thinking. Also as this site seems to have a Nazi thing going on, once more GOOD triumphed over evil. The Factor is" are you musical" in every thought deed and action? A hero who by example of compassion will triumph. "5th symphony" the triumph over fate.
Last thought,all that has happened, good /bad from the first civilisation to now,is because none cared to think beyond the obvious of thier perspective,actions. To worry about the 'future' while inactive today is not thinking at all ,just energy wasted.
Brave new world that HAS SUCH PEOPLE in't.
YOU are those people .
The pleasure has been all mine ,Thank you
Wm Jesset

[william jesset]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Beyond Within:
[B]The commercial topic brought this to mind...

There are perhaps many, but the most recent I remember is:

A commercial for a 'reality' MTV show about college Fraternities/Sororities. In it the screen is depicting college students engaged in the usual depraved activity - drinking, sex, breaking objects, acting ridiculous while intoxicated ect. Well during this onslaught of abject behaviour , Bachs Prelude in D Major for Cello is playing (in another version of the advertisement they play another piece, cant remember which). MTV seems to think its 'funny' to juxtapose an iconic example of sophistication on top of the lowest common denominator. To me its in extremely poor taste.

In general, I think the belittling of classical music to the status of empty, pedantic pretension by its depiction in the the context of caracatures, and people screaming in agony whenever they hear opera singing - is appalling. Apparently the current order (who control all media) do not like any semblance of the kind of system that classical music represents, so they poison it for every coming generation. Wow, what a subversive evil. Let me elaborate on why its evil for a moment. Great music, unlike anything else, can raise my spirits to a level of indescribable elation. It is an injection of life, but of no detriment to the human body or mind, only a refreshment of the spirit (as Bach would say). To glorify the application of prescribed drugs, but shun such a beautiful solution - is replacing a pure good, with a copout. The old order is withholding life from the youth out of fear. But there is more, and this is something I realized recently: It wouldnt be as bad if they literally witheld classical music by never exposing the youth to it. No, they condition the youth to detest it, Clockwork Orange style. This is even worse, because then they make the music impossibly out of reach. They quite nearly destroy the music. They destroy it at its very core - the psyche that could ever appreciate it. I dont think this is unintentional either. This may sound paranoid, but the 60s generation was all about destroying the 'establishment' in the name of a faux, misinterpreted neo-buddism, and I think now that they have taken power, they have nearly completed this goal. Some of the 'older' posters on this board may feel this is a little too dramatic a reality, but I have had everyday, direct, unfiltered contact with the most affected group by this new order. I have not met ONE person near my age (19) who likes classical music.

But to restate the intent of this post (it digressed into a cliche rant about the collapse of culture, as usual): Post a specific example of a missuse of classical music.

Once More I must address this issue,Popular culture has always been so. Classical music
was basicly composed for a King/people of high noble bearing. I too have a direct contact with youth and people mature in AGE only. Understand? Wisdom knows no boundaries,
and is not a given at ANY age.
First, change your enviroment,aka turn MTV/TV off! Just what had you hoped to find there? Beethovens remix? haha You can do it,as from everyone's posts, you seem aware. Whats lacking? Action,please stop pointing the blame elsewhere. I was there(6os) and yes, too much of nothing happened from it except old burn outs still thinking Meat is bad etc etc. Nothing to do except be thankful YOU have made your choice,
and can see the alternative's.
This is a truth as I've experienced. If all you see is bad junk,you need to take the blinders off to see good. Neo- buddism?
No as nothing is new. The proof, is you sound exactly like the hippys rant of "they have the power". They have always had the power,
and its all moot, as they will still have the power.
Stereotypes are a constant as based in truth,the college student since the Bards time have always been
portrayed as drunken rabble. As they are and will always be such. Or the book loving nerd listening to classical. Who cares? Just be yourself. As to the use of Classical music,
NO matter what form, its not a belittlement at all. Its the UNIVERSE exposing the good for you to see along with the bad. This is a cosmic truth of balance. Enjoy it thats all I
ask or have to say.As I think more of it, it's high art to laugh and the thought of some kid high on hormones,while drunk,breaking his tailbone while skateboarding to Bach,thats genius. Bach is laughing also,you just have to. If not "they'
won,who would ever of thought, Bach on MTV!!
My god! its the best of times with the worst.
It's not poisonious, it's homage, plain and simple and only reinforces the status of Classicial per se to the High art it is and always will be.
Thank You Thank You ,as I have a glorious insight Thanks to You
delightful new understand - and I am made
aware only thru YOU, my Intellegent friend
Sincrely your student as I look forward to the next junture
William Jesset

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
I have not met ONE person near my age (19) who likes classical music.

I am your age, but I know lots of people (several because of me) that like CM. Don't give up on hope .

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"Aaaaagnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi... PAM, PAM PA RAM PAM PAM..." (Missa Solemnis)

[urtextmeister]

BW,

There are others your age who are into classical music. Right now, I am involved with high school kids who are on the track to being professional musicians. We all live in the woods with others of the same persuasion. These kids probably can't imagine people their age who don't love classical music.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with William about turning off you MTV. I think it is important to know what goes on in pop culture no matter how painful it might be.

Most TV abuses of classical music don't bother me. Personally, I am fascinated by contrast. I haven't seen the commercial you mentioned, but I would probably like it. I recently saw a movie in which a man was being dragged through a herd of cows by a rope that was attached to a hot air balloon. The music accompanying this was some bel canto opera. I loved it.

Though I love classical music and the arts in general, I don't want to put on blinders and completely divorce myself from the world around me. I have been involved in the dance world most of my life and I have seen a lot of attempts and mixing high and low culture. One musical "score" involved alternating recordings of Patsy Cline with those of Vivaldi concerti, for instance. Sometimes classical ballet is set to music by Prince or Madonna. Most of this doesn't work, but when it does it can be very interesting.

Anyway, my abuse case is not so much exploiting music as a musician:
I saw a bit of CNN about Midori. They had her on a platform playing a Bach partita. She was completely into it, playing her heart out while the reporters and camera men stood around. After about twenty seconds, the reporters looked at each other, nodded, and then began applauding loudly. "That was great, wonderful." Midori was bewildered. She was in mid-phrase, trying to create magic but the segment could only be twenty seconds long.
Classical music reduced to a sound bite. That hurts.

[Beyond Within]

The Nazis using classical music isnt obscene to me, because atleast they were glorifying it. Hitler loved classical music, and even went on rants very similar to the one I went on about how Democracy would ruin music...I wish Hitler werent so taboo. It was Goebbels who masterminded the campaign you speak of, and really a lot of composers WERE nationalistic, so you cant really say they would 100% be opposed to this sort of thinking. And you cant think because someone uses it to further their political agenda that they believe in it 100% either. What bothers me about the people in power now is that they have no respect for the art. Goebbels may have abused the composers by slanting their intentions, but he (and the Nazis) always were respectful to music itself. Hitler tore up all the draft cards for musicians and artists. But anyway, I dont want to bring more controversy onto this board. This type of topic creates hostility.

"I agree 100% with your post. You raise problems that have been quite well dealt with by Alan Bloom, in his famous book, 'Closing of the American Mind'.If you are interested in the problems you mention I would urge you to track it down. Another to have dealt with the subject is the British writer Roger Scruton, in particular his book 'An Intelligent Person's Guide to Modern Culture', and 'The Aesthetics of Music'. Scruton is sometimes dismissed as a rabid reactionary, but you have to admit that there is some truth in his argument that dumbed-down pop culture is ruining high culture."

I have read half of "The Aesthetics of Music", it is a brilliant book. I strongly recommend it to everyone here. Its a very, very dense reading. Scruton knows a lot, and doesnt hold back at all. But its great material. Probably one of the best books I have encountered. I have to read it in bursts, because otherwise I just get tired and miss things. Its very worthwhile though. I want to get his other books, but I need to finish this one!

My rant was mostly due to bitterness - loneliness does that to you! Man is a social creature and wants to share his joys/sorrows with others, and I have nobody in person to share them with. But, atleast when I do meet someone it will be a very glorious friendship indeed.

I have to be honest here, most of my enjoyable discussions are either with my 65 year old father, or with people on the internet. Its the only place where you can quickly find similar thinking people, and you have the entire world to pick from! Its interesting, because my fathers best friends were found with his morse-code radio (hes 65, so thats all he had back then).

[MINGUS]

Hello to all. Im new here and have been listening to Classical Music for about two years. Im 18. I feel really lucky to find this music since it is not directly influenced towards me, especially in today's time. I was wondering what instrument everyone plays here. My first experience in Classical Music was Beethoven's String Quartet pieces, and one of them was named "Joy" I think, not from Symphony No. 9, but it starts out with violins and violas playing staccato quarter notes. Anyway, I hope that this message board will inform so that I may have a better understanding of Beethoven, and Vivaldi and Bach (Others who I also just recently discovered). By the way, I play clarinet and I really like the simple Clarinet harmonic melodies that are evident in Beethoven's symphonys, particularly in Symph. No. 9, the third movement, about five min. or so into it.

[Vipercat]

The worst thing for me is crossover music, like for instance "Mozart Mix" or something like that where they put a beat to classical music. I can't stand it, it ruins everything!

One example of classical music being misused in the media aired on our National Television in a local soap. A perverted guy captured a girl he was in love with (she wasn't in love with him), and held her hostage. His hero was Mozart!!! :-(

They also played Mozart's Piano Concerto no.21 in the background can you believe it? This made me cross because it tried to picture Mozart lovers as demented criminals, whereas Mozart's music has the total opposite effect.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Vipercat:
The worst thing for me is crossover music, like for instance "Mozart Mix" or something like that where they put a beat to classical music. I can't stand it, it ruins everything!

One example of classical music being misused in the media aired on our National Television in a local soap. A perverted guy captured a girl he was in love with (she wasn't in love with him), and held her hostage. His hero was Mozart!!! :-(

They also played Mozart's Piano Concerto no.21 in the background can you believe it? This made me cross because it tried to picture Mozart lovers as demented criminals, whereas Mozart's music has the total opposite effect.

VC
Surely you have seen "A Clockwork Orange" where the "hero" is an all out gangbanger with a love of Beethoven that surpasses even ours!? I wonder what THAT says...?



------------------
Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
VC
Surely you have seen "A Clockwork Orange" where the "hero" is an all out gangbanger with a love of Beethoven that surpasses even ours!? I wonder what THAT says...?

Didn't the late Stanley Kubrick who made 'clockwork orange' later regret making the film after some nut case in the 70's in Britian attack and kill someone citing the film as the reason why he did it.
Kubrick was deeply schocked by this and banned it from being shown in Britian from that day to this. But I gather recently it has been shown on public release again.
Anotny Burgess who wrote the Novel and claimed he was ripped off by the film-makers, detested what they did to his book.
A really pointless and abhorrent film! and I am sure Beethoven would have been scathing at the way his music was being used in such an ungodly way.


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