Brahms 1st as Beethovens 10th

[Beyond Within]

For several reasons I think this is wrong:

First, Beethovens even numbered symphonies were always peaceful and lyrical. Brahms 1st is very restless and somber. Its in a minor key!

Second, if it were considered to be what Beethovens next 'epic' symphony (11 I guess) would have sounded like, it doesnt have nearly the scope of his 9th, let alone something which expands upon what Beethoven did. I dont understand why this is praised as "Beethovens 10th" when it doesnt sound much like Beethoven at all; it sounds like concervative Romantic music, its not nearly as violent and intense as Beethovens music. Far 'softer' to my ears. It does have the Romantic dissonance, but thats different that 'heaviness', which is what Beethoven has.

[Peter]

It was a silly 19th century over-reaction to Brahms which highly embarrassed the composer himself, I don't see any need to perpetuate it today! As to the supposed similarities between the tunes in the finales of the 9th and Brahms 1st, Brahms said 'any fool can see that'! He was constantly being compared to Beethoven which irked him very much.

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'Man know thyself'

[lvbfanatic]

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First, Beethovens even numbered symphonies were always peaceful and lyrical.
""""

Let's hear the 8th... even numbered... but decidedly neither peaceful nor lyrical... doesn't even have a slow movement... then there's the 4th ... the first movement is in turmoil and its last movement is neithere lyrical nor peaceful... so it's hard to formulate some generalized characteristics in regards to LVB's symphonies...

It's also a mistake, in my opinion, to think of LVB's music as divisible into 3 periods... early middle and late... because so much of that output is in constant evolution... for example... has anyone really figured out in which musical period fits the Grosse Fugue? That's music par excellence bar none which cannot be pegged because it is so purely innovative...

""""
Brahms 1st .... doesnt have nearly the scope of his [LVB's] 9th, let alone something which expands upon what Beethoven did.
""""
In light of the Missa Solemnis, Op 123, LVB's 9th was not an expansion of anything that LVB himself had done... and clearly the same could be said about practically every other piece of music composed since then... except for those magnificent quartets... and let's return to that *Grosse Fugue* op 130 ...

""""
I dont understand why this [Brahm's 1st] is praised as "Beethovens 10th" when it doesnt sound much like Beethoven at all;
""""

Hmmm... was it really praise to say that? But I will agree that it did not rise to the level of the 9th... still had much to go... but then Brahm's threw in 3 other symphonies... and the 4th has depth... while the 2nd has a joi-de-vivre not too unlike the sheer joy one hears in some of the LVB symphonic outputs.

In any case... as another thread points out... LVB's musical remains unsurpassed.



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A Calm Sea and A Prosperous Voyage

[Rod]

Originally posted by lvbfanatic:
""""


Let's hear the 8th... even numbered... but decidedly neither peaceful nor lyrical... doesn't even have a slow movement... then there's the 4th ... the first movement is in turmoil and its last movement is neithere lyrical nor peaceful... so it's hard to formulate some generalized characteristics in regards to LVB's symphonies...

Few doubt it was in B's nature to present works that differ in nature in some way to the preceding opus of whatever genre, especially if the works were grouped in twos or threes and Beethoven had in mind a 9th symphony much sooner than it eventually arrived and thus 8 could have been seen as a central episode of a trio of symphonies. No.8 can be seen as a model of compression after the expanse of no 7. Sometimes it is the emotional gravity is lighter or darker. All things considered one could say no 8 is 'lighter' in this respect to 7 despite the 'turmoil'.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-19-2004).]

[Big D]

Dear B lovers: Nothing by Brahms-either his symphonies or other works- reminds me one bit of Beethoven. That's why I like him so much-he didn't try to copy B like all of the other Romantic goons of his generation.

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Big D:
Dear B lovers: Nothing by Brahms-either his symphonies or other works- reminds me one bit of Beethoven. That's why I like him so much-he didn't try to copy B like all of the other Romantic goons of his generation.

Big D,
Who might the 'goons' of Brahms generation be????

[Big D]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
Big D,
Who might the 'goons' of Brahms generation be????

You ask who the 'goons' might be? It's not hard, really. Think of all of the pretentious B wannabes in the 19th century. Can you name them?

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Big D:
You ask who the 'goons' might be? It's not hard, really. Think of all of the pretentious B wannabes in the 19th century. Can you name them?

Big D,
Why do you answer a question with a question. I don't think I could have made it any clearer. Who are the 'goons' you refer to????
If it is not so hard than may be you can be more specific by telling me their names. As far a wannabes go, most people who truly love classical music would not mind being called a wannabe if they could compose a single work that might sound like the people you talk about. If you don't like the composers you refer to as goons that's fine but there are music lovers that probably like their music, does that also make them goons, I think not... Are the goons , as you call them, composers like Dvorak, Bruckner, Schumann, Tchaikovsky, Berlioz? They are all from the same period as Brahms.
KS

[This message has been edited by King Stephen (edited 10-27-2004).]

[Big D]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
Big D,
Why do you answer a question with a question. I don't think I could have made it any clearer. Who are the 'goons' you refer to????
If it is not so hard than may be you can be more specific by telling me their names. As far a wannabes go, most people who truly love classical music would not mind being called a wannabe if they could compose a single work that might sound like the people you talk about. If you don't like the composers you refer to as goons that's fine but there are music lovers that probably like their music, does that also make them goons, I think not... Are the goons , as you call them, composers like Dvorak, Bruckner, Schumann, Tchaikovsky, Berlioz? They are all from the same period as Brahms.
KS

[This message has been edited by King Stephen (edited 10-27-2004).]

My good man,you answered my question! Those composers all STINK! P.S. No, I don't think their fans are goons-I was only making a point. Keep it real!

[Haffner]

Big D
Brahms' Violin Concerto doesn't remind you of Beethoven? Both Brahms' and Beethoven's VCs have an epic opening, a serene middle, and a rustic, folk-like finish; I am sure that some would mistake Brahms' work for Beethoven's second violin concerto!

As for Berlioz, Tchaikovsky and Schumann "stinking", it is really unfortunate that you feel this way. And just for future reference, Berlioz's Fantastique is more important historically than all of Brahms' compositions combined so you might want to keep the goon comments to a minimum so as to keep yourself from looking like a fool.


Back to the thread topic, I don't think this to be a totally far fetched claim. None of Brahms' music is a real deviation from Beethoven's formally speaking but I do think that it was unfair of the 19th century to so closely link Brahms and Beethoven; afterall, until Wagner, who - with a few exceptions - really stated anything that Beethoven had not already stated?

[This message has been edited by Haffner (edited 10-27-2004).]

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Big D:
My good man,you answered my question! Those composers all STINK! P.S. No, I don't think their fans are goons-I was only making a point. Keep it real!

First of, I am not your good man. Second , as a student you have a lot to learn. As for keeping it real, I suggest you take a course in manners. You are obviously caught in a narrow wedge regarding music and composers in general. Your shock words, "goons" and "stink" really don't apply here. This minor league 'debate' with you is over. Good luck in school, I hope you graduate.

"With age comes maturity"
KS

[This message has been edited by King Stephen (edited 10-27-2004).]

[Chris]

Let's not get sidetracked here.

[reformer]

I quite agree with Big D. 19th century romantic composers all stink. Does anyone listen to them? I have never got romantic with a lady while listening to any of them! The Billy Joel symphonies are far superior. Anyone who defends those composers deserve the title goon.

[Rod]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
First of, I am not your good man. Second , as a student you have a lot to learn. As for keeping it real, I suggest you take a course in manners. You are obviously caught in a narrow wedge regarding music and composers in general. Your shock words, "goons" and "stink" really don't apply here. This minor league 'debate' with you is over. Good luck in school, I hope you graduate.

"With age comes maturity"
KS

[This message has been edited by King Stephen (edited 10-27-2004).]

On the other hand I have little time for those who seem to like every composer and wish to be taken seriously. Discernment comes with maturity!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Originally posted by reformer:
I quite agree with Big D. 19th century romantic composers all stink. Does anyone listen to them? I have never got romantic with a lady while listening to any of them! The Billy Joel symphonies are far superior. Anyone who defends those composers deserve the title goon.

1. I imagine you do agree with Big D since you ARE Big D. Consequently, you have violated the first rule displayed at the top of every single page of the forum.
2. Your remarks are obviously intended to be offensive.

Can you guess what that means? IP ban, you say? Right-o.