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    #16
    Originally posted by Euterpe:

    Personally I believe Mr. Solomon. Of all the researchers who've examined this subject, only Solomon has presented any hard evidence through the use of dates and locations. Is there room for error? Of course. Nonetheless, it is very difficult to refute that Beethoven was sending the letter to Karlsbad on a certain date which could have only been in 1812. His discussions of his coach breaking down, the mention of Esterhazy's travel troubles, the confirmation of Esterhazy's whereabouts on certain dates...I could go on and on. As for having an affair right under Franz Brentano's nose I can only ask you this - how common are affairs between an individual and their spouse's closest friend? They are very common. Precisely because the opportunity IS there. Beethoven's feelings about adultery are irrelevant, especially in light of the fact that his moral values did not always match his actions - in other words, like many of us, he was human. In addition, what we refer to when we say "faithful" may mean something entirely different from what was meant when Beethoven used the term. Marriages were arranged back then. Clearly Antonie held her husband in high regard and she respected him. He was not, however, her chosen partner. Franz was chosen for her. She certainly could have pledged her faithful heart to Beethoven though her last name and duty was to Franz. The Immortal Beloved letter is constructed in a way that suggests it was indeed mailed. It is likely that Antonie was instructed to pick up Herr Beethoven's mail while she awaited his arrival and that is how Franz did not discover the letters to his wife. Perhaps Antonie and Beethoven secured another room so that Antonie was able to receive messages from Ludwig. It really is not a far stretch. Simply put yourself in a similar position and ask yourself what you would do if you were having an affair with your best friend’s spouse. How would you arrange things? No doubt this was a very carefully planned out affair. I won't deny there is a lot of speculation occurring. Nonetheless, the evidence of date, time, location and opportunity are difficult to refute. As for the letter's being in Beethoven's possession: If you were Antonie would you choose to destroy such letters? Probably not. On the other hand, would you risk the chance of your husband finding them? Probably not. The decision to return the letters to Beethoven for safe keeping is a very logical one - and keeping them safe is what Beethoven did indeed. The fact that the letters carried no name now makes sense - it was to protect the person having the affair. Even from the careful and sometimes coded entries in Beethoven's Tagebuch we can see that Beethoven was aware of his celebrity and the level of interest in his personal life which could stir scandal.
    It maybe he is right and we probably shall never know, but I don't think it is anything more than a theory, certainly not a fact. The point about this is everyone blindly accepts Solomon's version without question, yet there are very serious points that have been made to refute his claims.

    Here are a few more arguments to ponder -
    Beethoven wrote to the Archduke Rudolph on August 12. “....however, my physician, Staudenheim, commanded me to go to Karlsbad and from there to here (Franzenbad) ---- What excursions! and yet but little certainty touching an improvement in my condition.” Therefore Beethoven was not planning on meeting with his beloved in Karlsbad sometime soon and his meeting with the Brentanos in Karlsbad was more to chance than any planned rendezvous with Antonie Brentano.

    Secondly, when Beethoven wrote his letter to the beloved stating, “we shall probably see each other soon,” he had NO INTENTION of going to Karlsbad himself three weeks later. That is evident in the letter he wrote on July 17 to a young child named Emilie.

    But what is more important than the schedule is obviously Beethoven thought it would take two and half days for his letter to reach its destination if he posted the letter early Thursday morning (thus arriving Saturday). And if he thinks his letter will take two and half days to reach its destination, the letter was surely not going to Karlsbad!

    Now the distance from Teplitz to Karlsbad is approximately 50 miles -- that is a lesser distance than from Prague to Teplitz. So if Beethoven writing his letter Tuesday is going to post it early Thursday morning (i.e. leaves Teplitz early Thursday morning), the letter would have arrived in Karlsbad that night

    At the time Beethoven actually wrote his letter his plans were stay in Teplitz till the middle of August. So when he wrote, “we shall probably see each other soon,” he more likely meant that his beloved would be coming to Teplitz to see him, not that he was going to meet her.


    ------------------
    'Man know thyself'
    'Man know thyself'

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      #17
      Originally posted by Peter:
      It maybe he is right and we probably shall never know, but I don't think it is anything more than a theory, certainly not a fact. The point about this is everyone blindly accepts Solomon's version without question, yet there are very serious points that have been made to refute his claims.

      Here are a few more arguments to ponder -
      Beethoven wrote to the Archduke Rudolph on August 12. “....however, my physician, Staudenheim, commanded me to go to Karlsbad and from there to here (Franzenbad) ---- What excursions! and yet but little certainty touching an improvement in my condition.” Therefore Beethoven was not planning on meeting with his beloved in Karlsbad sometime soon and his meeting with the Brentanos in Karlsbad was more to chance than any planned rendezvous with Antonie Brentano.

      Secondly, when Beethoven wrote his letter to the beloved stating, “we shall probably see each other soon,” he had NO INTENTION of going to Karlsbad himself three weeks later. That is evident in the letter he wrote on July 17 to a young child named Emilie.

      But what is more important than the schedule is obviously Beethoven thought it would take two and half days for his letter to reach its destination if he posted the letter early Thursday morning (thus arriving Saturday). And if he thinks his letter will take two and half days to reach its destination, the letter was surely not going to Karlsbad!

      Now the distance from Teplitz to Karlsbad is approximately 50 miles -- that is a lesser distance than from Prague to Teplitz. So if Beethoven writing his letter Tuesday is going to post it early Thursday morning (i.e. leaves Teplitz early Thursday morning), the letter would have arrived in Karlsbad that night

      At the time Beethoven actually wrote his letter his plans were stay in Teplitz till the middle of August. So when he wrote, “we shall probably see each other soon,” he more likely meant that his beloved would be coming to Teplitz to see him, not that he was going to meet her.


      Where do you feel people are “blindly” accepting Maynard Solomon’s version without question? People blindly accepted the views of other biographers. It is Solomon who, without a doubt, proved the others wrong. He has at least proven that much whether you believe his Brentano theory or not.

      How does this statement prove anything? [….“Beethoven wrote to the Archduke Rudolph on August 12. “....however, my physician, Staudenheim, commanded me to go to Karlsbad and from there to here (Franzenbad)]……… It clearly states he was required by his physician to go to Karlsbad and Franzenbad, which means, he was in Karlsbad and Franzenbad. The fact that he tells Archduke Rudolph he was there for health reasons is irrelevant. You don’t actually believe Beethoven would write the Archduke telling him that, while he was on a health-related excursion, he conveniently planned a hook-up with his married sweetheart do you?
      […..“But what is more important than the schedule is obviously Beethoven thought it would take two and half days for his letter to reach its destination if he posted the letter early Thursday morning (thus arriving Saturday). And if he thinks his letter will take two and half days to reach its destination, the letter was surely not going to Karlsbad! Now the distance from Teplitz to Karlsbad is approximately 50 miles -- that is a lesser distance than from Prague to Teplitz. So if Beethoven writing his letter Tuesday is going to post it early Thursday morning (i.e. leaves Teplitz early Thursday morning), the letter would have arrived in Karlsbad that night]……. Again, I do not see how this proves anything. When I mail a letter from my home town to a location 10 miles away do you know how long it takes for that letter to reach its destination? - two days. One must assume that 19th Century Europe had a mail-sorting system prior to actually delivering the mail. This delays delivery. Moreover, 50 miles in a car takes less than an hour. Things move much slower in a horse and carriage.
      There is documentation showing that Beethoven registered in Teplitz on July 7th. Beethoven also wrote a letter on July 17th to Breitkopf & Hartel in which he indicates he arrived in Teplitz on July 5th. Either way, we know Beethoven was in Teplitz between July 5th and July 7th - most likely July 5th, but, he could not secure definite lodgings until July7th. In addition Beethoven wrote in one of the love letters “Lacking horses, the post-coach chose another route…the coach must needs break down on the wretched road, a bottomless mud road.” Solomon learned the weather consisted of heavy rain on July 3rd through noon of July 4th of 1812. So it is pretty clear he was in Teplitz. Police registers indicated Antonie Brentano arrived in Karlsbad on July 5th, 1812 after leaving Prague. A Prague newspaper cited on July 3rd, that Herr Brentano was staying at the Red House Inn in Prague. While in Karlsbad, the Brentanos stayed at 311 “Aug Gottes”. Beethoven arrived in Karlsbad on July 31st and stayed at the same guesthouse at 311 “Aug Gottes” auf der Wiese. Both Beethoven the Brentanos left Karlsbad for Franzenbad on August 7th or 8th. While in Franzenbad, Beethoven and the Brentanos once again occupied adjoining quarters at the “Zwei goldenen Lowen.” Bottom line, Antonie Brentano was in Prague, Karlsbad and Franzenbad during periods when Beethoven was in Prague, Karlsbad and Franzenbad. Dates, Location, Opportunity.

      It seems less likely that people are “blindly” accepting Solomon’s theories and more likely people are attempting to discredit irrefutable facts because of their own personal distaste for a particular biographer. Why those distastes exist is unclear to me.....or maybe they are clear.


      [This message has been edited by Euterpe (edited 10-26-2004).]

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by Euterpe:
        It seems less likely that people are “blindly” accepting Solomon’s theories and more likely people are attempting to discredit irrefutable facts because of their own personal distaste for a particular biographer. Why those distastes exist is unclear to me.....or maybe they are clear.

        I don't deny he makes a strong case and he has through thorough investigation revealed many facts. However there remain many uncertainties - it is not a matter of attempting to discredit, every theory has to be scrutinised especially when there is not conclusive proof. You say it was a great opportunity for Beethoven to indulge this affair - with the husband and child also present. I know some people are not bothered by such things, I don't believe Beethoven was one of them especially as he had the highest regard for Franz.

        Regarding Beethoven's remarks to Archduke Rudolph, I do not think he was lying as you do - he had no need to explain himself, he could simply have mentioned that he was meeting friends - the fact that he mentions Staudenheim by name, the fact that he also complains of his health in other letters, the fact that we know he originally intended to stay in Teplitz much longer prove that Beethoven was not lying when he stated Staudenheim had advised him to go to karlsbad for health reasons. Indeed, why did he not go straight to karlsbad where the Brentanos were instead of spending nearly 3 weeks at Teplitz? (when he wrote the IB letters he intended to stay much longer) It was not because of Goethe as Beethoven could have and indeed did meet him later in karlsbad.




        ------------------
        'Man know thyself'
        'Man know thyself'

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by Euterpe:
          Where do you feel people are “blindly” accepting Maynard Solomon’s version without question? People blindly accepted the views of other biographers. It is Solomon who, without a doubt, proved the others wrong. He has at least proven that much whether you believe his Brentano theory or not.
          It is the music scholars in particular who are blind because if they had any genuine and serious knowledge of Beethoven's life and times they would know Solomon's theory is seriously flawed. I can tell just from the letter itself without any references to times and places and who could have been where when.

          I voiced the idea that the letter as we have it may not be complete, I think the first page, if not more, could be missing as there is no typical greeting of any kind that we would usually expect from a Beethoven letter -we just have the sectons beginning 'July 6, in the morning...Evening, Monday July 6....' etc. So there easily could have been a section or sections before this.



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          "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
          http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

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            #20
            Originally posted by Rod:
            It is the music scholars in particular who are blind because if they had any genuine and serious knowledge of Beethoven's life and times they would know Solomon's theory is seriously flawed. I can tell just from the letter itself without any references to times and places and who could have been where when.

            I voiced the idea that the letter as we have it may not be complete, I think the first page, if not more, could be missing as there is no typical greeting of any kind that we would usually expect from a Beethoven letter -we just have the sectons beginning 'July 6, in the morning...Evening, Monday July 6....' etc. So there easily could have been a section or sections before this.

            Why would there be "sections missing" when letters typically begin with the month and day? That doesn't make sense. I have never heard any biographer bring up that comment - if they have please let me know where so I can read for myself. In addition, why is your knowledge of Beethoven's life superior to that of any music scholar?

            [This message has been edited by Euterpe (edited 10-26-2004).]

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Peter:
              I don't deny he makes a strong case and he has through thorough investigation revealed many facts. However there remain many uncertainties - it is not a matter of attempting to discredit, every theory has to be scrutinised especially when there is not conclusive proof. You say it was a great opportunity for Beethoven to indulge this affair - with the husband and child also present. I know some people are not bothered by such things, I don't believe Beethoven was one of them especially as he had the highest regard for Franz.

              Regarding Beethoven's remarks to Archduke Rudolph, I do not think he was lying as you do - he had no need to explain himself, he could simply have mentioned that he was meeting friends - the fact that he mentions Staudenheim by name, the fact that he also complains of his health in other letters, the fact that we know he originally intended to stay in Teplitz much longer prove that Beethoven was not lying when he stated Staudenheim had advised him to go to karlsbad for health reasons. Indeed, why did he not go straight to karlsbad where the Brentanos were instead of spending nearly 3 weeks at Teplitz? (when he wrote the IB letters he intended to stay much longer) It was not because of Goethe as Beethoven could have and indeed did meet him later in karlsbad.


              Well first of all I never said Beethoven was lying to the Archduke. What I said is just because he went for health reasons doesn't mean he didn't plan a trip for other reasons as well. People do that you know? Clearly you have someone else in mind you think is the Immortal Beloved...so who is she and what are your justifications for nominating her?

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Euterpe:
                Why would there be "sections missing" when letters typically begin with the month and day? That doesn't make sense. I have never heard any biographer bring up that comment - if they have please let me know where so I can read for myself. In addition, why is your knowledge of Beethoven's life superior to that of any music scholar?

                [This message has been edited by Euterpe (edited 10-26-2004).]
                As far as I am aware the idea is unique to myself, but I am surprised because it is so obvious, but I have no further evidence to support it, so it is just hypothetical. Look at the sections of the letter as we have it yourself - imagine if the first section was lost and thus the beginning was now the second section which begins in a similar manner - would you still say there is no way there could have been something before this!?

                I have successfully contradicted scholars before via personal email communication and this is not a particularly difficult feat as they are Jacks of all (musical) trades and music is not a science. Sometimes amateurs are more knowledgeable than the typical Professor regarding specific topics.

                ------------------
                "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




                [This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-26-2004).]
                http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Euterpe:
                  Well first of all I never said Beethoven was lying to the Archduke. What I said is just because he went for health reasons doesn't mean he didn't plan a trip for other reasons as well. People do that you know? Clearly you have someone else in mind you think is the Immortal Beloved...so who is she and what are your justifications for nominating her?
                  The point is that Beethoven didn't go to karlsbad simply because the Brentanos were there, and just because they were there it doesn't follow that he indulges in an affair with his friend's wife whilst the daughter is either out with daddy or sleeping in the next room.

                  I don't necessarily have someone else to suggest, a case can be made for Josephine Brunsvik but that also has its problems.

                  How do we know for certain that the K referred to in the letter is indeed Karlsbad? Solomon's whole case depends on this and I have already demonstrated that the letter is unlikely to have taken nearly 3 days to arrive - (according to Beethoven the post went early on thursday and he expected it to arrive saturday), though you don't accept that. Nor have you dealt with why Beethoven didn't go straight to karlsbad if his beloved was Antonie - it is clear from his letter to Emilie M dated 17th July 1812 that he had every intention originally of remaining in Teplitz until at least mid-August "I am staying on in Teplitz for 4 weeks", so his reasons for going to karlsbad earlier were as he told the Archduke, on the recommendation of his physician Staudenheim.


                  ------------------
                  'Man know thyself'
                  'Man know thyself'

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Peter:


                    I don't necessarily have someone else to suggest...
                    I admire your continuing energy with regard to this matter (though it would have been better spent discussing Op.59). As for me, I am breathless and exhausted...

                    ------------------
                    "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

                    [This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-26-2004).]
                    http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Rod:
                      I admire your continuing energy with regard to this matter (though it would have been better spent discussing Op.59). As for me, I am breathless and exhausted...

                      Well if you are no longer interested in the subject and, as you say, have said all you need to then let that be. You and Peter seem to not want to know who the Immortal Beloved is. You are perfectly happy with the romance of the mystery. I happen to be interested in figuring out the riddle. Therefore, I look for plausible answers. My intention is not to automatically discredit incredibly logical answers that verge on the obvious and require only the use of common sense.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by Peter:
                        The point is that Beethoven didn't go to karlsbad simply because the Brentanos were there, and just because they were there it doesn't follow that he indulges in an affair with his friend's wife whilst the daughter is either out with daddy or sleeping in the next room.

                        I don't necessarily have someone else to suggest, a case can be made for Josephine Brunsvik but that also has its problems.

                        How do we know for certain that the K referred to in the letter is indeed Karlsbad? Solomon's whole case depends on this and I have already demonstrated that the letter is unlikely to have taken nearly 3 days to arrive - (according to Beethoven the post went early on thursday and he expected it to arrive saturday), though you don't accept that. Nor have you dealt with why Beethoven didn't go straight to karlsbad if his beloved was Antonie - it is clear from his letter to Emilie M dated 17th July 1812 that he had every intention originally of remaining in Teplitz until at least mid-August "I am staying on in Teplitz for 4 weeks", so his reasons for going to karlsbad earlier were as he told the Archduke, on the recommendation of his physician Staudenheim.


                        Josephine is not at all a logical choice when you consider the date of the letter has been confirmed to be in 1812. How do we know for certain the "K" was Karlsbad? Are you serious? Have I been the only one present here? As for your mail theory: I don't accept it because you haven't demonstrated anything. Clearly, Beethoven was planning to go to Karlsbad. No matter what the physician recommended, he wrote three letters in July. You keep pointing out supposed contradictions that, while they exist, don't mean anything. Nor do they bring light to anything. Perhaps Beethoven was planning on meeting Antonie in Frazenbad and not Karlsbad. Perhaps there were no plans set in stone but only an awareness that his love would be in the same cities. I don't think so since mailing the letter so it reached Antonie's hands without her husband knowing would have took some planning. As for adjoining rooms, I just presented to you early the option they may have secured a completely separate room under a alias name. There are many ways an affair could have taken place. Either way, he stated "we shall surely see each other soon." He was certainly planning on seeing someone.

                        If you want to debate this further you need a logical argument. I feel a plausible argument would need to address how Beethoven sent the letters to Antonie without her husband finding them. That's a question I would like answered. I will not, however, entirely discredit Solomon simply because there is no immediate solution to that riddle.

                        That said, do you know of a way to contact Solomon so I might ask him this myself? Anyone's help on this would be greatly appreciated. I bought his Beethoven biography a while back. I was unable to find anything on the Internet. Quite frankly, I don't even know if he's still alive.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Euterpe:
                          Josephine is not at all a logical choice when you consider the date of the letter has been confirmed to be in 1812. How do we know for certain the "K" was Karlsbad? Are you serious? Have I been the only one present here? As for your mail theory: I don't accept it because you haven't demonstrated anything. Clearly, Beethoven was planning to go to Karlsbad. No matter what the physician recommended, he wrote three letters in July. You keep pointing out supposed contradictions that, while they exist, don't mean anything. Nor do they bring light to anything. Perhaps Beethoven was planning on meeting Antonie in Frazenbad and not Karlsbad. Perhaps there were no plans set in stone but only an awareness that his love would be in the same cities. I don't think so since mailing the letter so it reached Antonie's hands without her husband knowing would have took some planning. As for adjoining rooms, I just presented to you early the option they may have secured a completely separate room under a alias name. There are many ways an affair could have taken place. Either way, he stated "we shall surely see each other soon." He was certainly planning on seeing someone.

                          If you want to debate this further you need a logical argument. I feel a plausible argument would need to address how Beethoven sent the letters to Antonie without her husband finding them. That's a question I would like answered. I will not, however, entirely discredit Solomon simply because there is no immediate solution to that riddle.

                          That said, do you know of a way to contact Solomon so I might ask him this myself? Anyone's help on this would be greatly appreciated. I bought his Beethoven biography a while back. I was unable to find anything on the Internet. Quite frankly, I don't even know if he's still alive.
                          I think Rod is right, your tone is rather too sarcastic and beligerent for me to wish to continue this.

                          ------------------
                          'Man know thyself'
                          'Man know thyself'

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