Immortal Beloved again!!

[Joy]

In the book I am currently reading “The Nine Symphonies of Beethoven” by Antony Hopkins, he discusses the Immortal Beloved. He mentions Maynard Solomon’s search for the Immortal Beloved and that he (Solomon) believes it was Antonie Brentano. Here are some of Hopkins views on Solomon‘s conclusions. “Solomon fails to find a convincing explanation on why the letters were found in Beethoven’s desk. Did Antonie return them to him as documents too compromising for her to keep?” Hopkins goes on to say, “I still find it hard to believe that the affair truly flared up into the passionate interlude that appears to have developed. Having regard to the Heiligenstadt Testament and the dramatic language used in the notebooks (“Resignation, the most sincere resignation to thy fate“, “O Hard Struggle”), it seems that the letters were a way of acting out a fantasy. Perhaps Beethoven wrote letters, rambling through news of a journey.” In May of 1816 he wrote to Ries, “I found only one woman, whom I shall doubtless never possess.” Fantasy or not? Some food for thought. Interesting concept nevertheless.

Amalie, how are you enjoying your newest Beethoven book?

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Amalie]

Amalie, how are you enjoying your newest Beethoven book?

*****

I am afraid I shall have to wait patiently another week for my book Joy.
Meanwhile I have been quite absorbed with a new CD publication I purchased from Beethoven Hause Bonn, called:-

Mit Beethovens Ohr gehurt (i.e. Heard with Beethovens ears).

It is a poignant study on Beethovens progressive deafness in words and music.
Beethovens hearing from an acoustical point of view.
The accompanying booklet is written in English and German so that you can follow it when listening to the CD which is actually spoken in German, (fortunately my husband can translate it better than I can ).

It is a very interesting study and the music examples listed on the site are wonderful as heard by a normal hearing person and then the pieces of music are played in varying modes of hearing as Beethoven may have heard it.

http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=3505 &template=verlag_publikation_en&_mid=CDs%20and%20C D-ROMs


While you are on the Beethoven Bonn site don't forget to visit the very beautiful exhibition of the Moonlight Sonata.



[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 06-06-2004).]

[Amalie]

Moonlight Sonata Exhibition at Beethoven Haus Bonn.
http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/fl...nate/mond.html

Just sit back and let it all unfold. Click on 'Weiter' to continue and explore all the headings. Listen to the Moonlight Sonata sung to the Kyrie by Gottlob Benedikt Bierey. In the heading 'ROMANTISCHE VERKLARUNG'. A beautiful effect.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
In the book I am currently reading “The Nine Symphonies of Beethoven” by Antony Hopkins, he discusses the Immortal Beloved. He mentions Maynard Solomon’s search for the Immortal Beloved and that he (Solomon) believes it was Antonie Brentano. Here are some of Hopkins views on Solomon‘s conclusions. “Solomon fails to find a convincing explanation on why the letters were found in Beethoven’s desk. Did Antonie return them to him as documents too compromising for her to keep?” Hopkins goes on to say, “I still find it hard to believe that the affair truly flared up into the passionate interlude that appears to have developed. Having regard to the Heiligenstadt Testament and the dramatic language used in the notebooks (“Resignation, the most sincere resignation to thy fate“, “O Hard Struggle”), it seems that the letters were a way of acting out a fantasy. Perhaps Beethoven wrote letters, rambling through news of a journey.” In May of 1816 he wrote to Ries, “I found only one woman, whom I shall doubtless never possess.” Fantasy or not? Some food for thought. Interesting concept nevertheless.

Further arguments against Solomon's theory (from the Immortal beloved page on this site):

The argument against her being the Immortal beloved is that Beethoven would have had to have been carrying on this affair right under her husband's nose - Franz Brentano was present throughout at Prague and Karlsbad with Antonie, along with their daughter. Beethoven had the greatest respect (as did Antonie) for Franz and he regarded him as a personal friend - is it likely that he would have written to him in 1817 "I greatly miss your company and that of your wife and your dear children" if he had been having an affair with his wife? Nor could Beethoven have been discussing the prospect of marriage with her since the Austrian government would not have granted a divorce - her husband had no criminal convictions, and their is no evidence of adultery in either case. Having children made it even more unlikely they would have received a divorce. Beethoven is also known to have condemned adultery on many occasions and is surely unlikely to have regarded the affair as "truly founded in heaven - and what is more, as strongly cemented as the firmament of heaven" if it were adulterous? In the first letter Beethoven also says "remain my faithful, one and only treasure, my all as I am yours" - how was this possible when she was already married?


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 06-06-2004).]

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Amalie:


Moonlight Sonata Exhibition at Beethoven Haus Bonn.
http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/fl...nate/mond.html

Just sit back and let it all unfold. Click on 'Weiter' to continue and explore all the headings. Listen to the Moonlight Sonata sung to the Kyrie by Gottlob Benedikt Bierey. In the heading 'ROMANTISCHE VERKLARUNG'. A beautiful effect.

Amalie
Thanks again for one of your wonderful links! I enjoyed it and was reminded to surf again the website of the Beethoven Haus Bonn, where I wasn't for a wile.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Amalie:
Amalie, how are you enjoying your newest Beethoven book?

*****

I am afraid I shall have to wait patiently another week for my book Joy.
Meanwhile I have been quite absorbed with a new CD publication I purchased from Beethoven Hause Bonn, called:-

Mit Beethovens Ohr gehurt (i.e. Heard with Beethovens ears).

It is a poignant study on Beethovens progressive deafness in words and music.
Beethovens hearing from an acoustical point of view.
The accompanying booklet is written in English and German so that you can follow it when listening to the CD which is actually spoken in German, (fortunately my husband can translate it better than I can ).

It is a very interesting study and the music examples listed on the site are wonderful as heard by a normal hearing person and then the pieces of music are played in varying modes of hearing as Beethoven may have heard it.

http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/si...0and%20CD-ROMs


While you are on the Beethoven Bonn site don't forget to visit the very beautiful exhibition of the Moonlight Sonata.



[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 06-06-2004).]

Amalie, thanks very much for the info! What a concept with that CD of yours in listening to how a normal person may hear it and then how Beethoven might have heard it. I find that concept fascinating and wonder how anyone thought of that. Enjoyed the beautiful Moonlight as well. Thanks again for these wonderful sites.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Further arguments against Solomon's theory (from the Immortal beloved page on this site):

The argument against her being the Immortal beloved is that Beethoven would have had to have been carrying on this affair right under her husband's nose - Franz Brentano was present throughout at Prague and Karlsbad with Antonie, along with their daughter. Beethoven had the greatest respect (as did Antonie) for Franz and he regarded him as a personal friend - is it likely that he would have written to him in 1817 "I greatly miss your company and that of your wife and your dear children" if he had been having an affair with his wife? Nor could Beethoven have been discussing the prospect of marriage with her since the Austrian government would not have granted a divorce - her husband had no criminal convictions, and their is no evidence of adultery in either case. Having children made it even more unlikely they would have received a divorce. Beethoven is also known to have condemned adultery on many occasions and is surely unlikely to have regarded the affair as "truly founded in heaven - and what is more, as strongly cemented as the firmament of heaven" if it were adulterous? In the first letter Beethoven also says "remain my faithful, one and only treasure, my all as I am yours" - how was this possible when she was already married?

Well, I agree with you. it doesn't sound like she was 'the one'. If there was anyone at all it most certainly would have been someone who was not married, whoever that could be. I know how he felt about adultery too and it just doesn't fit into his character. Hopkins said, "While there is no doubt that Brentano had the most glowing admiration for Beethoven ("He walks Godlike among the mortals...as a human being greater than as an artist"), I suspect he might have foughtshy of actual physical involvement with her. If love was the potent inspirational force romantic writers would have us believe, how is it that Beethoven did not pour his heart out in a series of compositions for his beloved?" He said Beethoven dedicated a single work to her the Diabelli variations, hardly a romantic choice of music.
In that same year of 1816, he confessed to have been hopelessly in love for five years with someone "a more intimate union with whom I would have considered the greatest happiness of my life." What went wrong there? Who, again, was Beethoven talking about?. Maybe he was infatuated with Brentano and poured out his feelings in a letter and never mailed it because she was married thus never letting her know his true feelings. But who indeed. Maybe he never mailed the letters, maybe "she" never even knew his true feelings. He might have kept them to himself from whoever this person might have been.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 06-06-2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
Maybe he was infatuated with Brentano and poured out his feelings in a letter and never mailed it because she was married thus never letting her know his true feelings. But who indeed. Maybe he never mailed the letters, maybe "she" never even knew his true feelings. He might have kept them to himself from whoever this person might have been.

No, I think the letters make it quite clear that both were aware of each others feelings.


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'Man know thyself'

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Peter:
Further arguments against Solomon's theory (from the Immortal beloved page on this site):

The argument against her being the Immortal beloved is that Beethoven would have had to have been carrying on this affair right under her husband's nose - Franz Brentano was present throughout at Prague and Karlsbad with Antonie, along with their daughter. Beethoven had the greatest respect (as did Antonie) for Franz and he regarded him as a personal friend - is it likely that he would have written to him in 1817 "I greatly miss your company and that of your wife and your dear children" if he had been having an affair with his wife? Nor could Beethoven have been discussing the prospect of marriage with her since the Austrian government would not have granted a divorce - her husband had no criminal convictions, and their is no evidence of adultery in either case. Having children made it even more unlikely they would have received a divorce. Beethoven is also known to have condemned adultery on many occasions and is surely unlikely to have regarded the affair as "truly founded in heaven - and what is more, as strongly cemented as the firmament of heaven" if it were adulterous? In the first letter Beethoven also says "remain my faithful, one and only treasure, my all as I am yours" - how was this possible when she was already married?

I have found Solomon to have a flair for the dramatics. I personally find not really knowing who the "Immortal Beloved" is to be intriguing and would just as soon not know who she was.

[Beyond Within]

"Beethoven is also known to have condemned adultery on many occasions and is surely unlikely to have regarded the affair as "truly founded in heaven - and what is more, as strongly cemented as the firmament of heaven" if it were adulterous? In the first letter Beethoven also says "remain my faithful, one and only treasure, my all as I am yours" - how was this possible when she was already married?"


According to Solomon Beethoven would have intercourse with the wives of friends. They would actually offer them to him, and according to Maynard Beethoven would accept. I dont know how credible this is, what refutations have you heard? In his book Maynard offers 'proof' of this by the code word "fortresses" being used to cover up for what really are prostitutes/wives. What were these "fortresses" if not the above?

[Beyond Within]

"I have found Solomon to have a flair for the dramatics. I personally find not really knowing who the "Immortal Beloved" is to be intriguing and would just as soon not know who she was."

I find it most interesting if the Immortal Beloved was just an imaginary lover of Beethovens. I guess that would consumate his image as 'insane' but also be yet more proof of Beethovens grand imagination.

Sometimes when I have thoughts I will just write them down to get them out of my head, Beethoven may have been doing something similar, but in a much more elaborate manner.

[ILoveLudwig]

Thank you Amalie and everyone for this beautiful music experience today, via links and comments. I have bookmarked the link(s) to revisit again and again.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:


I find it most interesting if the Immortal Beloved was just an imaginary lover of Beethovens. I guess that would consumate his image as 'insane' but also be yet more proof of Beethovens grand imagination.

Sometimes when I have thoughts I will just write them down to get them out of my head, Beethoven may have been doing something similar, but in a much more elaborate manner.

I cannot believe this is all the work of fantasy.

Regardless, anything written by Solomon should be treated with the greatest caution and suspicion.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Euterpe]

Originally posted by Peter:
Further arguments against Solomon's theory (from the Immortal beloved page on this site):

The argument against her being the Immortal beloved is that Beethoven would have had to have been carrying on this affair right under her husband's nose - Franz Brentano was present throughout at Prague and Karlsbad with Antonie, along with their daughter. Beethoven had the greatest respect (as did Antonie) for Franz and he regarded him as a personal friend - is it likely that he would have written to him in 1817 "I greatly miss your company and that of your wife and your dear children" if he had been having an affair with his wife? Nor could Beethoven have been discussing the prospect of marriage with her since the Austrian government would not have granted a divorce - her husband had no criminal convictions, and their is no evidence of adultery in either case. Having children made it even more unlikely they would have received a divorce. Beethoven is also known to have condemned adultery on many occasions and is surely unlikely to have regarded the affair as "truly founded in heaven - and what is more, as strongly cemented as the firmament of heaven" if it were adulterous? In the first letter Beethoven also says "remain my faithful, one and only treasure, my all as I am yours" - how was this possible when she was already married?

Personally I believe Mr. Solomon. Of all the researchers who've examined this subject, only Solomon has presented any hard evidence through the use of dates and locations. Is there room for error? Of course. Nonetheless, it is very difficult to refute that Beethoven was sending the letter to Karlsbad on a certain date which could have only been in 1812. His discussions of his coach breaking down, the mention of Esterhazy's travel troubles, the confirmation of Esterhazy's whereabouts on certain dates...I could go on and on. As for having an affair right under Franz Brentano's nose I can only ask you this - how common are affairs between an individual and their spouse's closest friend? They are very common. Precisely because the opportunity IS there. Beethoven's feelings about adultery are irrelevant, especially in light of the fact that his moral values did not always match his actions - in other words, like many of us, he was human. In addition, what we refer to when we say "faithful" may mean something entirely different from what was meant when Beethoven used the term. Marriages were arranged back then. Clearly Antonie held her husband in high regard and she respected him. He was not, however, her chosen partner. Franz was chosen for her. She certainly could have pledged her faithful heart to Beethoven though her last name and duty was to Franz. The Immortal Beloved letter is constructed in a way that suggests it was indeed mailed. It is likely that Antonie was instructed to pick up Herr Beethoven's mail while she awaited his arrival and that is how Franz did not discover the letters to his wife. Perhaps Antonie and Beethoven secured another room so that Antonie was able to receive messages from Ludwig. It really is not a far stretch. Simply put yourself in a similar position and ask yourself what you would do if you were having an affair with your best friend’s spouse. How would you arrange things? No doubt this was a very carefully planned out affair. I won't deny there is a lot of speculation occurring. Nonetheless, the evidence of date, time, location and opportunity are difficult to refute. As for the letter's being in Beethoven's possession: If you were Antonie would you choose to destroy such letters? Probably not. On the other hand, would you risk the chance of your husband finding them? Probably not. The decision to return the letters to Beethoven for safe keeping is a very logical one - and keeping them safe is what Beethoven did indeed. The fact that the letters carried no name now makes sense - it was to protect the person having the affair. Even from the careful and sometimes coded entries in Beethoven's Tagebuch we can see that Beethoven was aware of his celebrity and the level of interest in his personal life which could stir scandal.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Euterpe:

Personally I believe Mr. Solomon.

Personally I have yet to be convinced by Solomon's theory, but I've wrote too much in the past to repeat it all here.


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-25-2004).]