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**Steppenwolf** · 09-08-2004, 06:06 PM

Karajan conducted my very favourite version of the 5th (I have several) - the early 80s digital version on Deutsche Gramaphon. There was a time, before hearing this, that I thought I would not be sorry if I never heard another note of the first movement of the 5th again - it has become cliched through relentless media exploitation - but when I heard this version it was like hearing the symphony for the first time in my life. I never before understood how intense, how FRIGHTENING this symphony can be if conducted well.

Karajan's conducting style was well suited to the grim, tempestuous 5th, but it was always as well suited to softer, gentler music. On the same disk he conducts the 6th, and I find that he spoils it somewhat by conducting it like the 5th! The tender, sylvan lyricism is lost by injecting it with too much anxious energy.

**Sorrano** · 09-09-2004, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by cosplusisin:
well, I've heard just a few things recorded with Karajan conducting, and I have to say I'm not impressed.
the other day I heard a recording of the peer gynt suite by Greig on the radio, and for the "mountain king" part, the whole song was so fast, and the building up had no effect.

I have heard recordings of the 5th and 7th symphonies (Beethoven), and for the most part, the music seems rushed for no good reason. another thing is that the overall mix is not good. the horns are too loud... this may not be his fault, but it is distracting.

what do you people think of him? Overall I thought he was supposed to be really good, but I feel like I wasted my money on that 5th symphony. the recording i like the best is the one with Seiji Ozawa conducting. I think that recording is just amazing.

I have heard that Karajan did a few recordings of the Beethoven symphonies. I think the ones I have are from the 70's (don't have the cd case handy). but it seems to me that I just don't like his style.

another thing that just sprung to my mind, as an example, is how in the quotation of the scherzo in the last movement, on Karajan's recording, the oboe notes are played rather disconnectedly. I don't know how it is written in the score, but i like it to sound flowy, like in the Ozawa recording.

and in the allegretto of the 7th symphony, the main bassline is played with the notes overlapping somehow... like you can't actually hear the breaks between the notes.. almost the opposite complaint to what i described above for the 5th symphony.

anyway, yeah... what do you think?

The earlier Karajan recordings ('60's) have greater critical acclaim than any later cycles. I've not been too disappointed (but then I use Toscanini's versions as a measuring rod).

**v russo** · 09-10-2004, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by cosplusisin:
well, I've heard just a few things recorded with Karajan conducting, and I have to say I'm not impressed.
the other day I heard a recording of the peer gynt suite by Greig on the radio, and for the "mountain king" part, the whole song was so fast, and the building up had no effect.

I have heard recordings of the 5th and 7th symphonies (Beethoven), and for the most part, the music seems rushed for no good reason. another thing is that the overall mix is not good. the horns are too loud... this may not be his fault, but it is distracting.

what do you people think of him? Overall I thought he was supposed to be really good, but I feel like I wasted my money on that 5th symphony. the recording i like the best is the one with Seiji Ozawa conducting. I think that recording is just amazing.

I have heard that Karajan did a few recordings of the Beethoven symphonies. I think the ones I have are from the 70's (don't have the cd case handy). but it seems to me that I just don't like his style.

another thing that just sprung to my mind, as an example, is how in the quotation of the scherzo in the last movement, on Karajan's recording, the oboe notes are played rather disconnectedly. I don't know how it is written in the score, but i like it to sound flowy, like in the Ozawa recording.

and in the allegretto of the 7th symphony, the main bassline is played with the notes overlapping somehow... like you can't actually hear the breaks between the notes.. almost the opposite complaint to what i described above for the 5th symphony.

anyway, yeah... what do you think?

...the 1963 recordings with the Berlin Philharmonic are the among best we have of the Maestro. I suggest you re-listen to these awesome interpretations once again.

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v russo

**Tony John Hearne** · 09-11-2004, 03:29 AM

I have a recording of the Marriage of Figaro from the 1950's by Karajan conducted at white heat with an absolutley amazing cast of singers under total discipline. This is one of my all time Operas and I can't imagine it being much better

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Love from London

**Haffner** · 09-11-2004, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Karajan conducted my very favourite version of the 5th (I have several) - the early 80s digital version on Deutsche Gramaphon. There was a time, before hearing this, that I thought I would not be sorry if I never heard another note of the first movement of the 5th again - it has become cliched through relentless media exploitation - but when I heard this version it was like hearing the symphony for the first time in my life. I never before understood how intense, how FRIGHTENING this symphony can be if conducted well.

Karajan's conducting style was well suited to the grim, tempestuous 5th, but it was always as well suited to softer, gentler music. On the same disk he conducts the 6th, and I find that he spoils it somewhat by conducting it like the 5th! The tender, sylvan lyricism is lost by injecting it with too much anxious energy.

Oddly enough, his 1963 recording of the 6th is the best I have yet to hear. The first movement is slightly too fast, but the last movement is immaculately tender and sensitive. And the transition from the fury of the thunder storm to the serenity of the Shepard's song is hauntingly vivid. Check out the 63 recording on grammaphone, you won't be disappointed

**v russo** · 09-11-2004, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by Haffner:
Oddly enough, his 1963 recording of the 6th is the best I have yet to hear. The first movement is slightly too fast, but the last movement is immaculately tender and sensitive. And the transition from the fury of the thunder storm to the serenity of the Shepard's song is hauntingly vivid. Check out the 63 recording on grammaphone, you won't be disappointed

agreed sir!

**Steppenwolf** · 09-13-2004, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by Haffner:
Oddly enough, his 1963 recording of the 6th is the best I have yet to hear. The first movement is slightly too fast, but the last movement is immaculately tender and sensitive. And the transition from the fury of the thunder storm to the serenity of the Shepard's song is hauntingly vivid. Check out the 63 recording on grammaphone, you won't be disappointed

On your recommendation then I shall. The general consensus seems to be that the early sixties cycle was the best, although so far I myself am only familiar with the eighties cycle.

**Rutradelusasa** · 09-13-2004, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
On your recommendation then I shall. The general consensus seems to be that the early sixties cycle was the best, although so far I myself am only familiar with the eighties cycle.

That and earlier tend to be best to most he recorded, so you usually find better performances and worse sound for recordings of the 50s and 60s with him, specially on EMI. There is one I recommend a lot that is Verdi's Requiem coupled with Bruckner's Te Deum (WPO, Wunderlich sings the Bruckner) on EMI, from 1960 if I'm not mistaken.

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"Aaaaagnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi... PAM, PAM PA RAM PAM PAM..." (Missa Solemnis)

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