Authentic page mp3s - Waldstein sonata Op.53 3rd mov

[Peter]

Now available to members at www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/authentic.html

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Now available to members at www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/authentic.html

A good effort from Tan here I think, which goes the the CD as a whole (it also includes Op.81a and Op.57). But his later CDs of Beethoven sonatas are not to the same standard of performance. I believe they have all just been re-released together as a boxed set.

A note about this piano, it states on the CD cover that Tan's Streicher copy is tuned to equal temperament - this manner of tuning is something Beethoven would not have become aquainted with during his lifetime and thus is not particularly 'authentic'. More, I presume, a matter of convenience for Tan.

For a lengthy article on this sonata go to: http://www.raptusassociation.org/son21e.html

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-23-2004).]

[Rutradelusasa]

Wow, great technic, in the first set of triplets, we usually hear only the harmonie, he gets all notes to sound equally, impressive!

That may be the piano's doing too, either way, I like it.

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"Aaaaagnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi... PAM, PAM PA RAM PAM PAM..." (Missa Solemnis)

[spaceray]

I just happened to read this in Mozart,The Golden Years,by H C Robbin Landon...
"..the old myth ,no doubt propounded by our well meaning but misguided Victorian forebears,that the modern piano is simply a technical improvment on the eighteenth-century variety ,is certainly open to grave doubts.Nowadays ,we tend to say that the modern piano is structurally and ,particularly with reference to the frame ,more solidly constructed than it's eighteenth-century ancestor;but in the porcess much of the fortepiano's delicacy,subtlety and poetry have been sacrificed for loudness,vulgarity and pure brute strength.The most striking difference is in the bass. A passage such as the begining of Beethoven's Waldstein Sonata, op 53 simply does not work on a modern piano."

I realize that your offering the 3rd movement here but thought this an interesting observation nevertheless.

[Amalie]

Thanks Rod,
I love the power and brilliance of this sonata, in particular the 3rd movement, an unforgettable theme you can't get out of your head.



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~ Unsterbliche Geliebte ~

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I just happened to read this in Mozart,The Golden Years,by H C Robbin Landon...
"..the old myth ,no doubt propounded by our well meaning but misguided Victorian forebears,that the modern piano is simply a technical improvment on the eighteenth-century variety ,is certainly open to grave doubts.Nowadays ,we tend to say that the modern piano is structurally and ,particularly with reference to the frame ,more solidly constructed than it's eighteenth-century ancestor;but in the porcess much of the fortepiano's delicacy,subtlety and poetry have been sacrificed for loudness,vulgarity and pure brute strength.The most striking difference is in the bass. A passage such as the begining of Beethoven's Waldstein Sonata, op 53 simply does not work on a modern piano."

I realize that your offering the 3rd movement here but thought this an interesting observation nevertheless.

Well of course I would agree wholeheartedly with Mr Landon's sentiments. I myself have commented before that some passages of Beethoven 'simply do not work' on the modern piano, I think on this occasion I was discussing the 'Eroica' variations, but there are many other incidences.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-24-2004).]

[ruudp]

Originally posted by Rod:
A good effort from Tan here I think, which goes the the CD as a whole (it also includes Op.81a and Op.57). But his later CDs of Beethoven sonatas are not to the same standard of performance. I believe they have all just been re-released together as a boxed set.

A note about this piano, it states on the CD cover that Tan's Streicher copy is tuned to equal temperament - this manner of tuning is something Beethoven would not have become aquainted with during his lifetime and thus is not particularly 'authentic'. More, I presume, a matter of convenience for Tan.

For a lengthy article on this sonata go to: http://www.raptusassociation.org/son21e.html

WEll...
Rod, I wholeheartedly agree with rutr. on the technical level of playing which was impressing..I only found the movement too be played a little bit fast.I've got a rendition of John lill playing the sonata and playing the 3th movement more stretched so to say..I'd also like VERY much too hear the adagio preceding the rondo since the 2 movements are originally linked..I'm very intriged of how this movement sounds on a period instruments, how the nuances are on this instrument..perhaps you can enlighten us on that part not by hearing but by expaining since I'm sure you'll have the sonata complete at home..
Regards,
Ruud

[Rod]

Originally posted by ruudp:
WEll...
Rod, I wholeheartedly agree with rutr. on the technical level of playing which was impressing..I only found the movement too be played a little bit fast.I've got a rendition of John lill playing the sonata and playing the 3th movement more stretched so to say..I'd also like VERY much too hear the adagio preceding the rondo since the 2 movements are originally linked..I'm very intriged of how this movement sounds on a period instruments, how the nuances are on this instrument..perhaps you can enlighten us on that part not by hearing but by expaining since I'm sure you'll have the sonata complete at home..
Regards,
Ruud

I agree Tan could perhaps be a touch looser in his performance but this is a minor complaint. Regarding adagios I have always recieved queries that the typical fortepiano may not have the sustaining power the music requires. To which I would respond 'then why did Beethoven write these adagios, many of which he performed himself on these kind of instruments, if they could not be performed adequately?' Believe me from what I have heard even the earlier fortepiano's can handle what Beethoven asks of it in this regard. Tans performance I suspect is a little quicker than typical with the adagio, but not rushed. I think the piece gains a more rhetorical quality from this as opposed to some formless continuation of sustained notes like one often hears. I'll see what I can do about an mp3 for the adgio, but it is a matter of space.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-27-2004).]

[joshua]

<<Regarding adagios I have always recieved queries that the typical fortepiano may not have the sustaining power the music requires. To which I would respond 'then why did Beethoven write these adagios, many of which he performed himself on these kind of instruments, if they could not be performed adequately?' Believe me from what I have heard even the earlier fortepiano's can handle what Beethoven asks of it in this regard.>>

Didn't Beethoven end up saying something to the effect of the fortepiano being an inadequate instrument in general? This is not to say that modern pianos are any more adequate.... But maybe the fortepianos actually couldn't stand up to what Beethoven demanded of them.... just a thought.

At any rate, thanks for the recording, this is one of my favorite movements.

[ruudp]

Originally posted by joshua:
<<Regarding adagios I have always recieved queries that the typical fortepiano may not have the sustaining power the music requires. To which I would respond 'then why did Beethoven write these adagios, many of which he performed himself on these kind of instruments, if they could not be performed adequately?' Believe me from what I have heard even the earlier fortepiano's can handle what Beethoven asks of it in this regard.>>

Didn't Beethoven end up saying something to the effect of the fortepiano being an inadequate instrument in general? This is not to say that modern pianos are any more adequate.... But maybe the fortepianos actually couldn't stand up to what Beethoven demanded of them.... just a thought.

At any rate, thanks for the recording, this is one of my favorite movements.

Well indeed As I recall it Beethoven said in his later years with a very frustrated tone: the piano is and will always be a instrument with faults
Regards,
Ruud

[Rod]

Originally posted by joshua:

Didn't Beethoven end up saying something to the effect of the fortepiano being an inadequate instrument in general? This is not to say that modern pianos are any more adequate.... But maybe the fortepianos actually couldn't stand up to what Beethoven demanded of them.... just a thought.

At any rate, thanks for the recording, this is one of my favorite movements.

You've answered your question yourself - just because Beethoven may have found fault with the pianos of his time does not by default mean that the modern instruments offer all the solutions. Whether the old pianos are adequate or not is not really what matters, what matters is that they are very different to todays pianos, and Beethoven comosed bearing the nuances of the old instruments in mind, not (of course) instruments designed much later with much different characteristics.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-28-2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by ruudp:
Well indeed As I recall it Beethoven said in his later years with a very frustrated tone: the piano is and will always be a instrument with faults
Regards,
Ruud

On many more occasions Beethoven was more complimentary about certain pianos. I ask you, by the time I have reached the last set of Bagatelles, tell me if these instruments are inadequate.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[ruudp]

Originally posted by Rod:
On many more occasions Beethoven was more complimentary about certain pianos. I ask you, by the time I have reached the last set of Bagatelles, tell me if these instruments are inadequate.

I would not dare suggest pianofortes being inadequate at all..I Possess Several recordingds of mozart works on pianofortes which are SUBLIME and as you said before mozart a.o played on these instruments aswell Why shoulkd they love it if it was default...Surely it must have been a good instrumenet too some extent cause mozart was a very critical person one might say..Also I am inclined too say that works which are written for harpschichord should be played on this instrument PERIOD.

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Music is like Blood...vital too ones well-being

[Rod]

Originally posted by ruudp:
..Also I am inclined too say that works which are written for harpschichord should be played on this instrument PERIOD.

Your inclination is absolutely correct.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Just a note..

Fate has allowed me today to come across a recording of op110 and op126 performed using Beethoven's own Graf piano housed in his birthplace museum in Bonn. If it's any good you may benefit from this aquisition in the future.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin