sonata difficulties

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by KyleC:
hello. i was just wondering how difficult are Beethoven's piano sonatas in respect to other piano music by other composers. if you could rank the overall difficulty on a scale from 1 to 10 of such sonatas like the moonlight sonata, the pathetique sonata, and the sonata appassionata what rank would you give them? just a curiousity. thanks

In addition to this question I'd like to specifically compare composers such as Rachmaninoff and Liszt to Beethoven--especially with Beethoven's later sonatas--which are more difficult?

[urtextmeister]

I would like to dive into this discussion just to try to clarify a couple things.

It is easier to produce a set of pitches on the piano than on most instruments. After all, they are all laid out and divided for us. All we have to do is push the key.
I have recently tried taking out my guitar after twenty years of neglect. It was physically painful to produce a chord and when I did, I got all kinds of buzzing and jangling. For the next 24 hours my fingertips were throbbing. I have never played bassoon, but I have witnessed young players stop in the middle of a Vivaldi concerto because they cannot physically play any more notes. I can't count the number of times I have seen horn players take a running leap at a certain note and fail to get it. Well, maybe the next day...

Any note on the piano is instantly playable by a toddler with no musical ability.

A musically satsifying performance on the instrument is another question. This is probably hampered by the ease of the instrument. Too many students play the piano without the natural breathing and phrasing that other instrumentalists NEED to use. Sometimes the notes come too easily and the pianist doesn't go beyond that.

Coordination is one of difficulties of advanced piano repertoire and organ is slightly more difficult in that respect. I have been playing organ for about 15 years in varying degrees of earnestness and I still have a lot of difficulty feeling oriented. My feet can get around and my hands are using a fairly appropriate technique, but some of the Bach rep is has such independent voices! For instance in some pieces it is suggested that while the right and left hands (separate manuals) and pedals are going about their business, you borrow a thumb from the left and right hands and poke out a melody on the manual in between where the right and left are doing their main business.

Sorrano,
I think one could read a late Beethoven sonata more easily than one could read say the Liszt sonata. However, the piece is learned, some would say the Liszt might be easier because it is more pianistic. It helps if you came out of the womb playing octaves, of course.

[Ellery]

Well, everybody has got out of theme a little... Beethoven is a very dificult composer, and the piano sonatas resume the best of his piano work I think. The dificulty of the sonatas are vary a lot. As sombebody say, none of them are for beginners, and some of them are part of the most dificult piano works of all times (the latest sonatas as Hammerklavier or no.32). Schubert's sonatas have its dificulties, Chopin's sonatas are very hard to play as all of his works, Lizt sonata in b moll have an awesome dificulty to not mencionate Rachmanninov, Prokofiev or Brahms Sonatas. You have to considerate that in the piano its matter of time and study that you'd be able to play some things. At this point you have to think in others aspects, like (as Peter says) "to play the notes its just the begining". I always repit that to my begginer students, who try to play things like Chopin studies or Rachmanninov preludes. Think in the piano as a progressive work. If you ask me the top ten of the most dificult sonatas are Hammerklavier, List sonata in b moll, Rachmanninov sonates and Brahms sonatas... but I'm still a beginer in the piano.

Talking about the dificult on the instruments, I have to say all instruments have their own dificult. The organ have a pedal, but doesnt have dinamics as the piano have... you cant play pianos, fortes, sforsandos. Wellits just my opinion.

[Vipercat]

Originally posted by Ellery:
The organ have a pedal, but doesnt have dinamics as the piano have... you cant play pianos, fortes, sforsandos. Wellits just my opinion.

And by the way you are required to play forte, piano, sforzandos etc. on the organ although you can't achieve this by touch!! It is achieved through very subtle articulation, registration and appropriate technique. The pedal is not at all the most difficult aspect IMHO. It is like urtextmeister said, and you have to be EXACT in how you play each note.

You actually have to "play the rests(!!)" so accurate your timing must be. You aren't allowed to play a quaver a fraction over the beat as you could get away with on the piano (since the sound automatically dies away) It takes enormous amount of discipline and acute listening skills!

[william jesset]

Yes,of course they are only a few musical tools/instruments that reguire very little skill at all to play, pan pipes, harmonica, autoharp,etc.
Previous posts have compared the difference between the familiy of keyboards vs the stringed familiy. I shall address the Guitar.
Guitar and the piano are superior intruments,due to the fact that they lend themselves to reveal inherent Harmony; chords.
Granted tone production is the goal,I give my vote to the piano as being able to enthral
those who might never take music as a study, due to the immediate gratification of 'pure'
sound/tone.
The guitar for instance has 6 strings/5 'usable' positions to produce middle C. This is remarkable as each string has its own timbre. This is where I notice where one type of frustration comes into play for the student,"Where do I play"? Which position is best suited for the occasion. Of course if you play a piece as written/transcribed by ,say Llobet or Sergovia,you miss the opportunity to really learn the mastery of this glorious intrument.
Many the time have I seen a piece played on the guitar by a performer, only to find out that they have NO idea of the process of the Harmony. The mechanics of music,is then still a mystery to them. The guitar is right there with piano as it 'revels' the harmony inherent within ,as it was the Arabic Moors/ mathematicians who devised the tuning/frets that remain constant to this day.
This is how ,I believe, as the guitar in the last half of the 20th century has over taken music via rock'n'roll,is part and parcel of return to parallel 5ths /organum. The 'dumbing' down of music.
A moot point for sure,but I think its a disservice to say a piece is difficult, as this only sets up the perpetuation of parameters that only stifle the student. In effect possibly making one 'gun shy' to take on a piece for study. As one's perspective has now been reinforced that THIS IS HARD. Of course, we all realise that anything that has value is not a 'given'. Ie work is required.
When asked< Bach replied; HARD WORK is the key.
To elaborate, we need to nurture the future,and I for one,only praise the efforts that it takes to play at any level. My opinion is, its better for society to hear more, than to be frightened by "oh Classic's are difficult, so lets just play video's and be music comsumers rather than composers/performers".
Only my thoughts and mine only, please don't take offense ,as its only dialoge.
Once more its been my pleasure to partake of your wonderful site ,with you wonderful people, for whom I would like to believe are more than dillettante.
Thank you

[Beyond Within]

The point here is that piano involves far less extraneous musicianship problems that most other instruments have. With piano you can jump right into worrying about technique. Before you can even consider phrasing on guitar you need to spend time filing your nails, testing the tone, filing more, testing, and so on. This isnt the end. Everytime I file my nails it takes a day to get used to it. I think a "difficult" instrument is one which has more frustration involved in it. Piano is never frustrating because technique is so straight foward.

Its so obvious if you look at the repertoire. A piece like Mozarts sonata 545 on piano is considered less than intermediate. On classical guitar its considered a virtuoso piece. I have been playing piano for far less a time than Classical guitar, but what I play on piano sounds far more polished, professional, and difficult than what I play on classical guitar. Piano may have way more complicated pieces, but to reach those same complicated pieces on an instrument like guitar takes WAY more work just to play, let alone imbue nuance. You may argue "well thats because they were intended for piano!!!" Well you can transcribe pretty much anything but pieces with involved tremolo, and it will play FAR easier on piano than the original instrument. This may be because piano is the closest to perfection an instrument will ever get. Hench it having the greatest posibilities for a solo instrument. The only draw back to piano, that I see, is that it cant do tremolo. Someone should devise a new pedal which executes this. Now THAT would be awesome. Then it would be renamed the "Piano Forte Tremolo".

[william jesset]

Yes I agree about the piano, but as I stated before, only because of the matrix that provides the 'harmony'. Granted it has been the choice for composing, but my point is very few seem to realize that the guitar is as important a tool for understanding the musical process Ie. Harmony.
The fretboard matrix with the tuning of P4, lends itself to concepts a piano will not revel, such as symetrical chord voicings, without change in the fingering.
My other point is if you transcend the written transcriptions for guitar and find your own fingerings , this matrix will expose all sorts of topics.

[KyleC]

once again guys thanks for the answer but could you please atleast answer my question? read the very first post. not the first reply the first post and than answer that please. after that feel free to talk about whatever. thanks.

[Tegan]

I don't think there's any definitive scale to determine the precise difficulties of Beethoven's sonatas, but this is the one I usually refer to. I've included the names of the sonatas as far as I know them. I hope that this helps!

Lowest level of difficulty:
op.49, no.2
op.49, no.1
op.79"Cuckoo Sonatina"
op.14, no.1
op.14, no.2
op.2, no.1
Intermediate level:
op.10, no.1
op.13"Pathetique"
op.10, no.3
op.10, no.2
op.28"Pastoral"
op.2, no.3
op.26
op.31, no.3
op.7
Hardest level:
op.27, no.2"Moonlight"
op.27, no.1
op.31, no.2"Tempest"
op.2, no.2
op.54
op.78"A Therese"
op.90
op.81a"Les Adiux"
op.31, no.1
op.53"Waldstein"
op.57"Apassionata"
op.101
op.111
op.109
op.106"Hammerklavier"

[Ellery]

I've to say sorry about the organ issue, but I'm still have to say that the piano it's one of the most dificult intruments. You can play easy, but if you want to reach the highest levels you have to study more than many other instruments, because it required strong fingers, independient fingers, strech fingers, a comprehension about the piece voices more than any other instrument, etc, etc, etc. You cant compare dificult in the pieces beetwen instruments... if mozart facile sonata its a virtuoso piece, hammerklavier its unnplayable, and its not because the tecnic requirements, but tecnical capabilities of the instruments. At the end I have to say it again: all the instruments have their own dificulties.

AAAAA... and I agree with the last clasification of the Beethonves sonatas.