sonata difficulties

[KyleC]

hello. i was just wondering how difficult are Beethoven's piano sonatas in respect to other piano music by other composers. if you could rank the overall difficulty on a scale from 1 to 10 of such sonatas like the moonlight sonata, the pathetique sonata, and the sonata appassionata what rank would you give them? just a curiousity. thanks

[Chris]

Some are not so difficult, and some are very difficult. I'll leave the 1-10 stuff to Peter, as he is more qualified than I to make that determination. I'll just say that none of the sonatas are trivial, and none are for beginners, although the Op. 49 sonatas are suitable for intermediate students. The Pathetique is not too difficult either - probably the easiest of the sonatas except for the Op. 49 ones. The Moonlight is not too difficult either, but I certainly wouldn't call it easy. The first movement presents some interesting challenges, particularly in keeping those eighth notes nice and even. The last movement has some technically difficult things, but nothing a lot of practice can't overcome. The Hammerklavier, Op. 106, is a very difficult work, on the other hand. Surely more difficult things have been written, by Liszt, for example. But it's still a very, very challenging work.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 08-12-2004).]

[Beyond Within]

You know, I am just starting to realize that nothing should even be called "difficult". I had been working on the Pathetique for several months, then I read that Chris thought that the Etude #12 Revolutionary was easier than the Pathetique. I found this hard to believe, since it sounds much harder when I listen to it. So I tried it out, and within 2 weeks I could play the first page, at 8/10th speed, with proper phrasing and metronome precision. I am not bragging at all either. I think anyone can do it if they dont shy away from pieces because they think its too hard. Piano seems so much simpler than classical guitar, you can basically play anything you want, you just have to start slow and work your way up. This is ofcourse because all you have to do to make a note have a solid tone is just hit it. On virtually every other instrument it takes tremendous care just to get a single note to sound properly. This is why I think piano is overrated in terms of its difficulty. I like playing piano far more than I do classical guitar. Getting a piece to sound smooth and effortless on classical guitar, a piece that doesnt sound anywhere near as challenging as one on piano, takes a lot longer and a lot more of my practice to happen. On piano I have almost instant gratification, classical guitar is not that way at all. In fact, if I hadnt dedicated so much time to getting where I am on classical guitar, I may have just completely abandoned it and played only piano. Its just soooooooo much less frustrating.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
You know, I am just starting to realize that nothing should even be called "difficult". I had been working on the Pathetique for several months, then I read that Chris thought that the Etude #12 Revolutionary was easier than the Pathetique. I found this hard to believe, since it sounds much harder when I listen to it. So I tried it out, and within 2 weeks I could play the first page, at 8/10th speed, with proper phrasing and metronome precision. I am not bragging at all either. I think anyone can do it if they dont shy away from pieces because they think its too hard. Piano seems so much simpler than classical guitar, you can basically play anything you want, you just have to start slow and work your way up. This is ofcourse because all you have to do to make a note have a solid tone is just hit it. On virtually every other instrument it takes tremendous care just to get a single note to sound properly. This is why I think piano is overrated in terms of its difficulty. I like playing piano far more than I do classical guitar. Getting a piece to sound smooth and effortless on classical guitar, a piece that doesnt sound anywhere near as challenging as one on piano, takes a lot longer and a lot more of my practice to happen. On piano I have almost instant gratification, classical guitar is not that way at all. In fact, if I hadnt dedicated so much time to getting where I am on classical guitar, I may have just completely abandoned it and played only piano. Its just soooooooo much less frustrating.

Hmm, can't say I agree - playing the notes is just the beginning!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Beyond Within]

Well thats the point, getting to that "beginning" which is instantaneous on piano, takes forever on classical guitar. I cant even comprehend how tiring playing Violin or Cello would be. Atleast classical guitar has frets...

[Chris]

Actually, I think getting a good tone out of a guitar is almost as easy as a piano. The violin is a NIGHTMARE in regards to this.

But there are some things that you cannot do on the piano simply by slowing them down and bringing them up; they require real technical cultivation. Some things with trills come to mind, for one.

[Vipercat]

I can't say I completely agree either. Yes, it is true that on a piano, almost anyone can strike / depress a key and produce an "acceptable" sound (assuming the piano is in tune, and of good quality etc.) whereas to PRODUCE an acceptable sound on a string/ woodwind / brass instrument takes comparably more practice in that sense.

However, to really have a sensitive touch on the piano and to produce excellent tone colour, constrasting dynamics and subtle timbre and texture is certainly not easy. The difference between a technician and a great pianist who plays with feeling lies partly with this aspect, and a good musician / someone with a good ear will immediately hear the difference.

To play for example the Revolutionary Etude "correctly" is a different story to playing it sensitively, beautifully (if you can call the piece 'beautiful' and to carry across the several musical ideas effectively to the listener.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
Well thats the point, getting to that "beginning" which is instantaneous on piano, takes forever on classical guitar. I cant even comprehend how tiring playing Violin or Cello would be. Atleast classical guitar has frets...

It isn't instantaneous on the piano unless you're a Liszt or a Richter who could sight read almost anything with perfection. I really don't know why you think playing the piano is so easy, to my mind it is one of the most difficult things anyone can undertake! You're not telling me are you that Chopin's etudes for example or Beethoven sonatas can be played instantaneously?

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

Peter, the point was not that anything could be played right away, but that a perfect tone could be acheived right away. And that's true, unlike, for example, the violin, in which it literally takes years to get a good tone out of the instrument.

While that's true, the piano has plenty of other difficulties, and in the end, the piano is one of the more difficult instruments I think.

[Beethoven1]

To add to Peter, piano is definitely one of the most difficult instruments to play particulary because it is one of the few instruments where one is required to read and play several notes at one time.

[ruudp]

Originally posted by Beethoven1:
To add to Peter, piano is definitely one of the most difficult instruments to play particulary because it is one of the few instruments where one is required to read and play several notes at one time.

I don't want to be a pain in the butt right now but since you stated that the piano is difficult because it consists of 2 hands corresponding at eachother sometimes even independently..wouldn't the organ than be FAR more difficult as the piano again..since this instrument requires reading 3 staffs..one for left hadn one for right hand and one for the feet...I am a pianist aswell and thus completely agree with you and peter but the question which arised at me is wether the organ in difficultness stands above the piano??
Regards,
Ruud

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
Peter, the point was not that anything could be played right away, but that a perfect tone could be acheived right away. And that's true, unlike, for example, the violin, in which it literally takes years to get a good tone out of the instrument.

While that's true, the piano has plenty of other difficulties, and in the end, the piano is one of the more difficult instruments I think.

The one point about the piano that hasn't been referred to is touch - a key can be played in many different ways and many different sounds can be created - no two artists playing on the same instrument will sound alike. The idea that anyone can automatically produce a beautiful tone on the piano is nonsense - I forget who it was who said that anyone can play a single note on the piano, the art comes in playing two notes or more. Take a simple chord of three notes - a beginner could play it, but could he bring out the middle note or the bottom note etc.. as required? Could he play it so that all the sounds balance beautifully? That magical chord that opens the 4th piano concerto is extremely difficult!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

I agree with you, but I don't think that is exactly "tone." *Sigh*...this thread is really making me wish I played better

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 08-08-2004).]

[KyleC]

i think that piano is hard. but i also agree that there are harder instruments out there. the things that peter was talking about with the chords is true. it can be quite difficult at times to "bring out" one note. such a feat requires strong fingers among many other mental things. another thing that can be difficult at times is in pieces where one hand is louder or softer than another. that isnt exactly easy.

however as much as i enjoyed reading these posts only one of you, thank you very much Chris, has stuck to the point of the thread.

[This message has been edited by KyleC (edited 08-08-2004).]

[This message has been edited by KyleC (edited 08-08-2004).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chris:
Peter, the point was not that anything could be played right away, but that a perfect tone could be acheived right away. And that's true, unlike, for example, the violin, in which it literally takes years to get a good tone out of the instrument.

While that's true, the piano has plenty of other difficulties, and in the end, the piano is one of the more difficult instruments I think.

And then there is organ....