Beethoven Book!

[Joy]

I heard in passing this past week about a book by the authors Richard and Edith Sterba. Could anyone tell me the name of this Beethoven book? Has anyone read it? I would like to look into it and read yet another book on him. Thanks for any information!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Gurn Blanston]

Joy,
It is called "Beethoven and his Nephew", I guess the name says it all. It is well spoken of in the online articles that I have seen. Go a Google search on {Sterba Beethoven} and you will get a bunch of hits, including places to buy it used for pretty good prices.


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
I heard in passing this past week about a book by the authors Richard and Edith Sterba. Could anyone tell me the name of this Beethoven book? Has anyone read it? I would like to look into it and read yet another book on him. Thanks for any information!

The book is a psychological approach written in the 1950s, so it's pretty dated and has some strange conclusions - there's much I don't agree with.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
The book is a psychological approach written in the 1950s, so it's pretty dated and has some strange conclusions - there's much I don't agree with.

Can you be more specific Peter? Is the book just about his nephew or does it deal with other aspects of his life. Oh, dear, another psychological book, might be trouble indeed!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Joy,
It is called "Beethoven and his Nephew", I guess the name says it all. It is well spoken of in the online articles that I have seen. Go a Google search on {Sterba Beethoven} and you will get a bunch of hits, including places to buy it used for pretty good prices.

Thanks Gurn for the information, that's one book I must have missed in my ever searching quest for more Beethoven books!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Joy:
Thanks Gurn for the information, that's one book I must have missed in my ever searching quest for more Beethoven books!

De nada, señora.


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
Can you be more specific Peter? Is the book just about his nephew or does it deal with other aspects of his life. Oh, dear, another psychological book, might be trouble indeed!

It refers to Beethoven's unconscious homosexual attitude towards both his brothers as well as attractive young men such as Holz, Amenda, Baron de Tremont. Sterba regard Beethoven also as being a mother to the brother Carl, and that rescuing nephew Karl from his real mother was an act of rebirth - the brother reborn in the nephew through Ludwig as mother! Wherever Beethoven describes himself as father to Karl, Sterba states that Beethoven means mother!

Now whether or not Beethoven had hidden homosexual tendencies I've no idea and couldn't care, but it seems ridiculous to imply that even if that were the case he would harbour such feelings for his brothers! As for the insistence on a mother complex, need I say more?

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'Man know thyself'

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Peter:
It refers to Beethoven's unconscious homosexual attitude towards both his brothers as well as attractive young men such as Holz, Amenda, Baron de Tremont. Sterba regard Beethoven also as being a mother to the brother Carl, and that rescuing nephew Karl from his real mother was an act of rebirth - the brother reborn in the nephew through Ludwig as mother! Wherever Beethoven describes himself as father to Karl, Sterba states that Beethoven means mother!

Now whether or not Beethoven had hidden homosexual tendencies I've no idea and couldn't care, but it seems ridiculous to imply that even if that were the case he would harbour such feelings for his brothers! As for the insistence on a mother complex, need I say more?

I agree with you Peter,
Clearly the Sterba's loathed Beethoven and I think much of their 'psychobabble' was put forth by Solomon or Freud.
No legitimate psychoanalyst would attempt to categorize a subject with whom they had no personal interaction.
Not only are these suggestions unprovable, they are surely utterly irrelevant and trivial in the 'light' of his music, do we now have to reconsider the 9th symphony in the light of these purported discoveries and if so, are they capable of giving a running commentary on the symphonies, quartets, and sonatas in the light of Beethoven regarding himself as a kind of 'earth mother'?, whacky or what!. I think these authors need to be taken to a place of safety where they can share their crackpot theories with all the others who think they are Napoleon or Howard Hughes!
The problem with 'psychobabble' is that its theories are either trivial or irrelevant or both, because they simply cannot explain why person 'A' who is being subjected to pretty much the same pressures as person 'B' and comes from the same social or economic background turns out a success in life however you want to define that, and person 'B' does not. So therefore if person 'B' turns to crime, psychologists will say it is due to his background, pressures, whatever and which if that is true would also apply to person 'A' but it does not and you cannot then use the cop-out that it is person 'B's personality because that excludes by definition social and economic factors!



[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 05-09-2004).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Amalie,
Well, I haven't read the book, so you may be perfectly correct, but I am always loathe to believe the worst about someone like that when it appears to be that you are having an emotional rather than rational reaction. Really dear, I can't imagine that the Sterbas loathed Beethoven, or were engaging in character assasination.
They had a theory about human interrelationships that they felt could be demonstrated with the known facts about Beethoven. They may have been wrong, they may have been right. Your summation that it doesn't matter anyway, only the music matters, is quite correct. So, if you believe that, why take this so personally to heart? If it is true, it is no more than a manifestation of his humanity, and a demonstration that a person's growing environment never ceases to affect his personality right up until death, and in some cases the results live on. So what? We knew that already, didn't we? B's commonality with other humans in his imputed reaction to pressures of his environment merely demonstrate the bond we all share.


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Amalie,
Well, I haven't read the book, so you may be perfectly correct, but I am always loathe to believe the worst about someone like that when it appears to be that you are having an emotional rather than rational reaction. Really dear, I can't imagine that the Sterbas loathed Beethoven, or were engaging in character assasination.
They had a theory about human interrelationships that they felt could be demonstrated with the known facts about Beethoven. They may have been wrong, they may have been right. Your summation that it doesn't matter anyway, only the music matters, is quite correct. So, if you believe that, why take this so personally to heart? If it is true, it is no more than a manifestation of his humanity, and a demonstration that a person's growing environment never ceases to affect his personality right up until death, and in some cases the results live on. So what? We knew that already, didn't we? B's commonality with other humans in his imputed reaction to pressures of his environment merely demonstrate the bond we all share.

I take on board what you are saying Gurn, but it is Beethoven's music and status as a great man we are concerned about. My only point is really that a lot of this psycho stuff can really be read either way. Even if it can be proved, which it cannot, it is trivial or meaningless and does not explain why somebody else who had this particular complex whatever it was, did not end up writing the Eroica and piano sonatas and string quartets. Sterba's book does not add anything to our knowledge.
I agree with you that character and environment does affect personality, but I suspect it is in far more subtle ways than this rather crude analysis. In my view, this stuff that has been written in black and white by the Sterba's is merely an extrapolation from rather dubious psychoanalysis.
A few years ago I read a similar book about Shakespeare implying that he had an insestuous relationship with his mother (as in Hamlet),which is absurd in the extreme.
Why are these books always so badly written.

My apologies Gurn, for having to rush all this.



[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 05-10-2004).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Amalie,
Well, I guess what I am saying is that it seems that many people took the book as being about Beethoven, when I think it was really about psycholgy in some form. When people write books like that, they are not concerned about furthering the view or reputation of the subject, but rather with furthering their concept of what neuroses or psychoses they were driven by. This sort of book really should not be considered part of the Beethoven literature as it is not intended for an audience of music lovers. In your work you deal with medical people (and are one), tell me that this take on their motivations is not accurate! But the thing is that it is totally impersonal. That is why I took issue with your statement "they loathed Beethoven", because I totally don't believe it. In fact, I consider it far more likely that they had no more interest in Beethoven than in any other subject of study. So it goes.


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:


need I say more?

Nope!!!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[~Immortal Beloved~]

Originally posted by Peter:
It refers to Beethoven's unconscious homosexual attitude towards both his brothers as well as attractive young men such as Holz, Amenda, Baron de Tremont. Sterba regard Beethoven also as being a mother to the brother Carl, and that rescuing nephew Karl from his real mother was an act of rebirth - the brother reborn in the nephew through Ludwig as mother! Wherever Beethoven describes himself as father to Karl, Sterba states that Beethoven means mother!

Now whether or not Beethoven had hidden homosexual tendencies I've no idea and couldn't care, but it seems ridiculous to imply that even if that were the case he would harbour such feelings for his brothers! As for the insistence on a mother complex, need I say more?

I don't believe they would add such junk on beethoven! This is too much.

[octavian]

Sterbas' book is about a psychoanalytical approach to the relationship between Beethoven and his nephew Karl. Peter has already commented on it.

Solomon also approaches Beethoven life through the psychoanalysis and has a good opinion about the Sterbas' work.

REgards,

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Peter:
It refers to Beethoven's unconscious homosexual attitude towards both his brothers as well as attractive young men such as Holz, Amenda, Baron de Tremont. Sterba regard Beethoven also as being a mother to the brother Carl, and that rescuing nephew Karl from his real mother was an act of rebirth - the brother reborn in the nephew through Ludwig as mother! Wherever Beethoven describes himself as father to Karl, Sterba states that Beethoven means mother!

This sounds quite predictable and typical coming from a Freudian fanatic. These Freudian shrinks can read Oedipal complexes into everything! I can't help thinking that an extreme Freudian view of the world - which sees virtually ALL human behaviour as some sort of neurotic sexual hang-up - is itself quite warped. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I think Beethoven didn't have any children of his own, and didn't have a wife, or anyone very close to him, and was lonely. Therefore he was probably overly possessive of his nephew, in a fatherly way, because he wanted someone to love. Why can't we just leave it at that? Why should we overly complicate the matter and postulate all these weirdo Freudian theories?