Do all B.'s symphonies have names besides numbers.

[Peter]

Originally posted by plp:
Such a simple question, but such knowledgeable responses and opinions. But "simple questions-simple minds", so to pursue the original question - as far as the ones with names, I seem to remember hearing one of the later symphonies referred to as the Dance Symphony. Does this ring a bell for anyone.

Great Forum.

This refers to Wagner's comments about the 7th symphony - he call it the Apotheosis of the dance, 'the dance in its highest condition; the happiest realisation of bodily movement in an ideal form' - he reputedly then demonstrated this by dancing round the room whilst Liszt played the piano!


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well we have the Razumovsky quartets, the Archduke trio, the Waldstein sonata etc... what's wrong with that? No program implied there!

Names that imply programmes, like 'moonlight'.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Names that imply programmes, like 'moonlight'.

I agree that we have to be wary of that sort of thing, but if we have a Waldstein sonata, why not an Oppersdorf symphony (nr.4), though I admit it doesn't exactly trip off the tongue!!

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Pastorali:
18, 61, 111, 123, 125... Numbers can be sexy!

Yes, of course that is it! For me, it is the 3rd Cello Sonata. And ultimately we want sexy, despite our protestations to the contrary!




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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[plp]

Originally posted by Peter:
This refers to Wagner's comments about the 7th symphony - he call it the Apotheosis of the dance, 'the dance in its highest condition; the happiest realisation of bodily movement in an ideal form' - he reputedly then demonstrated this by dancing round the room whilst Liszt played the piano!

That is quite a tribute coming from Wagner. Thanks for responding directly to my question.

[AndrewMyers]

Who was the modern artist who started calling his work 'abstract composition no 16' etc, presumably trying to ape opus numbers? Rothko? Kandinsky? Modriaan? Anyway, there is a certain beauty to the idea that music can't really be 'named,' that it's beyond words.

Does anyone else find that after a while the opus numbers themselves take on the 'meaning' of the music by association and end up being quite evocative, even though they are just numbers? Especially once you get beyond 100 - op 106! op 130! And of course op 125!

Plus I like the way an opus number (usually) gives you 'at-a-glance' information as to where the work comes in the composer's career - you're mostly guaranteed a masterpiece with Mozart after around K 350 for example.

Not always reliable of course - I remember being a little disappointed with the op 49 piano sonatas, for example, thinking they would be middle period works.

[Gurn Blanston]

Andrew,
So true. And B probably has more examples of that than anyone, like Op 71 and 81b and 103 and 129 in addition to your example (and Op 51 I think). If you keep up with Mozart and use the Koechel 6 numbering, they are pretty accurate and are being updated frequently, so at least they reflect what they are supposed to reflect. But in B's case, there has only been 1 attempt to put things right, Biamonti, and it has been virtually ignored except by those lovers of the arcane (like Gurn Blanston ) who prefer learning something new if it will promote accuracy and knowledge. Pity really


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[ruudp]

Originally posted by Frederica:
We usually refer to the 5th symphony as "Schicksalssymphonie" (symphony of fate), but maybe this is just an "unofficial" designation and just used with German speakers (or even just in Austria??).

Frederica,
We in the Netherlands refer to this symfonie aswell with the schicksalssymphony only in dutch it is de noodlots-symfonie Which is a much-used title indeed I'd say

[Gurn Blanston]

And I have read that in regards the sonata that we in America call "Waldstein", in parts of Europe, particularly formerly in Britain, it was called instead "Aurora", a vastly different name indeed. I have seen it designated such on CD's. I think that the shrinking of the world through communication may have ended that one though.


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[ruudp]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
And I have read that in regards the sonata that we in America call "Waldstein", in parts of Europe, particularly formerly in Britain, it was called instead "Aurora", a vastly different name indeed. I have seen it designated such on CD's. I think that the shrinking of the world through communication may have ended that one though.

Well,
Particulary in France this name is still in high demand,the reason they called it L'aurore is because the beginning of a movement gave them the impression of a fresh starting day.I my self find that the 1st aswell the 3th movement come in mind with this association, I find the beginning of the 3th movement of a sublime and serene beauty and simplicity.*the listening part ofcourse, playing it is quite the opposite*

Regards,
ruud

[Joy]

I think a lot of times people have a difficult time remembering the Opus numbers and with naming them it is easier to remember the pieces of music. I do agree though that the numbers are a great way to differentiate some (but not all) of the dating process.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Joy:
I think a lot of times people have a difficult time remembering the Opus numbers and with naming them it is easier to remember the pieces of music. I do agree though that the numbers are a great way to differentiate some (but not all) of the dating process.

Joy, this is true, really, one must make an effort to learn something though. On another board I frequent a young poster the other day asked some very plaintive questions about "Vivaldi's a minor Violin Concerto" which were quite difficult to answer due to the fact that there are at least half a dozen of them! I don't feel that it is a requirement for enjoyment of classical music to learn everything there is to know about it. But I do think that if you are going to go beyond that, you need to make at least a minimal effort to learn what a piece is called! After that, it is likely that the bigger scheme of things will become quite evident.




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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Ulrich.Voelkening]

Dance Symphony means the Symphonie No 7, because R. Schumann said It is a Apotheose of the dance.
A lot of names are not from Beethoven himselfe .

Originally posted by plp:
Such a simple question, but such knowledgeable responses and opinions. But "simple questions-simple minds", so to pursue the original question - as far as the ones with names, I seem to remember hearing one of the later symphonies referred to as the Dance Symphony. Does this ring a bell for anyone.

Great Forum.

[Levi]

Aww, the fifth symphony KIND OF has a name, I have always thought of it having a name, that is the Victory symphony. A: Because 5 is V is roman numerals, thus V for Victory, and B, the morse code dot dot dot dash (the theme of the 5th) is also V. I am not sure, so correct me if I'm wrong but Winston Churchill was an admirer of Beethoven and always signalled V with his fingers, for Victory, which he got from the fifth symphony, I'm not sure if this is true...

Originally posted by Peter:
Only the Eroica (3), Pastoral (6) & ChoraL (9)are named.

By the way I think you guys are missing HEAPS of Beethoven pieces with names, unbelievable amounts... about half of his piano sonatas have names, 3 of his violin sonats, 2 cello sonatas, and don't forget the Battle symphony...



[This message has been edited by Levi (edited 08-10-2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Levi:
Aww, the fifth symphony KIND OF has a name, I have always thought of it having a name, that is the Victory symphony. A: Because 5 is V is roman numerals, thus V for Victory, and B, the morse code dot dot dot dash (the theme of the 5th) is also V. I am not sure, so correct me if I'm wrong but Winston Churchill was an admirer of Beethoven and always signalled V with his fingers, for Victory, which he got from the fifth symphony, I'm not sure if this is true...

By the way I think you guys are missing HEAPS of Beethoven pieces with names, unbelievable amounts... about half of his piano sonatas have names, 3 of his violin sonats, 2 cello sonatas, and don't forget the Battle symphony...

[This message has been edited by Levi (edited 08-10-2004).]

We are not missing 'heaps' of names as this thread was with regard to the symphonies alone! I think you'll find most people here are pretty knowledgeable about Beethoven and many other subjects. Your idea of Victory for the 5th symphony would be confusing as their already exists the victory symphony from Egmont by Beethoven!

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'Man know thyself'