Authentic page mp3s - Piano sonatas Op.49

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Peter,
As I understand, allegro means "moving right along", to paraphrase the Italian. But in Vienna in the late 18th/early 19th it had a quite specific meaning which every musician knew. It is unfortunate that we can't relate it to a specific metronome setting like 76 or whatever, but its meaning and speed were so well known that in many opening movements the composer didn't even bother writing in the word "allegro", it was a given that if there was nothing written it was allegro, and exactly how fast it would be. As it is, we can only guess and choose to like or dislike something based on our own particular and peculiar tastes. Since I don't like my music to hang about humming to itself, then a brisk allegro is the right thing for me. And there is a certain charm in brisk, too!

Well I don't agree that tempo was written in stone as you imply - why then bother to invent the metronome in the first place? As an example, in symphonies 1,2 & 5 Beethoven himself gives different markings for the same term Allegro con brio. Inconsistentcies abound where he does supply metronome markings which are of course controversial anyway as he supplied 2 vastly different sets for the 9th symphony.

I'm not saying that I'm in favour of brisk or slow performances, but that the character of the piece determines the tempo - I do agree with Rod that many Allegro moltos or con brios etc are performed too lamely, (a late 19th century trend), however I think in the case of the Rondo presented here, just a touch slower would be preferable to my taste - I only mean a notch down on the metronome, nothing drastic!

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Peter,
While I agree with the bulk of your post, let me just clear up, I am implying nothing! I am stating that there was a general agreement among musicians back then exactly what "Allegro" meant. Since it can't be tied to a metronome marking, we don't know what it is, but they did. If you look at a collection of works form that time, and check out the tempo markings, everywhere you see the the word "allegro" in brackets, thusly [Allegro], it means that it was not written down, merely understood. Since we have no way to know what their understanding was, we have to rely on our taste. Yours says a little slower, mine says just right. So?


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Peter,
While I agree with the bulk of your post, let me just clear up, I am implying nothing! I am stating that there was a general agreement among musicians back then exactly what "Allegro" meant. Since it can't be tied to a metronome marking, we don't know what it is, but they did. If you look at a collection of works form that time, and check out the tempo markings, everywhere you see the the word "allegro" in brackets, thusly [Allegro], it means that it was not written down, merely understood. Since we have no way to know what their understanding was, we have to rely on our taste. Yours says a little slower, mine says just right. So?

Well Allegro meant what it does now, Quick, lively and they would have understood it in just the same way - the metronome was invented as an attempt to be more specific.

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Nah, I don't think so. If it was that simple everyone would be on the same page wouldn't they? And professional musicians wouldn't be bashing each other up over it either. Anyway, "quick" and "lively" have no more specific meaning that the Italian translation I gave earlier, "moving right along". Those words and phrases all require a subjective reaction. And this isn't just my opinion, but the musicians of that time knew what allegro was and would sit down and play allegro with no further discussion. The problem is generally acknowledged that we don't know what it was that they knew! That's why every conductor does it a bit different, within quite a broad margin. And these things varied from place to place, that's why B asked Ries in a letter "what does allegretto mean over there (London)? Is it faster or slower than allegro?". In Vienna it meant one thing, but there was no surety that it meant the same in London. I'm sure going the long way around just to justify agreeing with Rod!


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Nah, I don't think so. If it was that simple everyone would be on the same page wouldn't they? And professional musicians wouldn't be bashing each other up over it either. Anyway, "quick" and "lively" have no more specific meaning that the Italian translation I gave earlier, "moving right along". Those words and phrases all require a subjective reaction. And this isn't just my opinion, but the musicians of that time knew what allegro was and would sit down and play allegro with no further discussion. The problem is generally acknowledged that we don't know what it was that they knew! That's why every conductor does it a bit different, within quite a broad margin. And these things varied from place to place, that's why B asked Ries in a letter "what does allegretto mean over there (London)? Is it faster or slower than allegro?". In Vienna it meant one thing, but there was no surety that it meant the same in London. I'm sure going the long way around just to justify agreeing with Rod!

Your assertion that Allegro specified an exact number of beats per minute that all Viennese instinctively performed at is wrong and I don't know what evidence you have to make such a claim! I have already given you some examples where Beethoven himself sets different metronome marks for exactly the same Italian terms - they understood Allegro to mean quick, lively as we do - yes of course it is subjective which is why the metronome was invented and why Beethoven retrospectively assigned tempo markings to all his symphonies. Since you won't accept that, Czerny in his edition of Bach fugues book 1 (based on Beethoven's own interpretations) indicates Allegro ranging from 100-126 for the crotchet beat in different preludes and fugues.


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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 07-28-2004).]

[Rod]

My collective experience over the years is that the Beethoven allegro is not so effective at tempos we have become accustomed to post WW2. As I have mentioned before Czerny warned against performing Beethoven at a 'tempo ordinario' and he was absolutely correct. We needn't bring the matter of metronomes into the equation, the issue is clear to my mind on purely aesthetic terms alone.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
My collective experience over the years is that the Beethoven allegro is not so effective at tempos we have become accustomed to post WW2. As I have mentioned before Czerny warned against performing Beethoven at a 'tempo ordinario' and he was absolutely correct. We needn't bring the matter of metronomes into the equation, the issue is clear to my mind on purely aesthetic terms alone.

I agree with you that generally speaking Beethoven's tempos have been taken too slowly, a left over from Romanticism. However in the symphonies for example, Beethoven doesn't use the term Allegro without qualifying it in some way, and I think it is particularly his addition of con brio that has been woefully neglected.

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Peter,
Well, I repeat it because I have read the same information in a dozen different places, ranging from books to liner notes. Allegro changed meaning from place to place, but within a certain place it was quite consistent in what it meant, both to a composer and to the local musicians. If I need to reread all the books in my library in order to cite you chapter and verse, I will do so, but I would rather not as it is considerable. However, I will tell you that Neal Zaslaw, who is currently the chief editor of the Neue Mozart Ausgabe (the Kochel for our times) published in his book "The Mozart Symphonies" the Czerny tempo tables and I looked at them last night. One of the things I found odd was that there are at least three different allegro with modifier (spiritoso is the one I remember) that are listed at 152 with the same quarter note beat and time signature. My understanding of this anomaly is that words like "allegro" are not intended to convey only the speed, but also the indefinable atmosphere and style in which the piece is played. So the fact that Beethoven used different modifiers (he was big on that as you mentioned) didn't indicate that he wanted a different speed, per se, but that he wanted a different style/attitude/presentation.

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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Peter,
Well, I repeat it because I have read the same information in a dozen different places, ranging from books to liner notes. Allegro changed meaning from place to place, but within a certain place it was quite consistent in what it meant, both to a composer and to the local musicians. If I need to reread all the books in my library in order to cite you chapter and verse, I will do so, but I would rather not as it is considerable. However, I will tell you that Neal Zaslaw, who is currently the chief editor of the Neue Mozart Ausgabe (the Kochel for our times) published in his book "The Mozart Symphonies" the Czerny tempo tables and I looked at them last night. One of the things I found odd was that there are at least three different allegro with modifier (spiritoso is the one I remember) that are listed at 152 with the same quarter note beat and time signature. My understanding of this anomaly is that words like "allegro" are not intended to convey only the speed, but also the indefinable atmosphere and style in which the piece is played. So the fact that Beethoven used different modifiers (he was big on that as you mentioned) didn't indicate that he wanted a different speed, per se, but that he wanted a different style/attitude/presentation.

Gurn, I accept that Allegro had a specific meaning (as it does now - quick, lively) but it did not mean a precise, inflexible exact number of beats to the minute - it implied a fast tempo within a certain expected range. Why else did Maelzel who invented the metronome specify a range of 120-168 for Allegro? If Allegro was set, how come fast movements were played faster in 1800 than 1750? Why does Beethoven himself give different markings for exactly the same terms?
Czerny's 2 editions of the Beethoven sonatas also vary with regard to metronome speeds as do his suggestions for Allegro in his Bach editions. I guarantee that even Beethoven would not have played his sonatas, in exactly the same way at exactly the same tempo - we have this on good authority.

I agree with you that the Italian terms also convey more than tempo.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 07-28-2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Peter,
My understanding of this anomaly is that words like "allegro" are not intended to convey only the speed, but also the indefinable atmosphere and style in which the piece is played. So the fact that Beethoven used different modifiers (he was big on that as you mentioned) didn't indicate that he wanted a different speed, per se, but that he wanted a different style/attitude/presentation.

I have got the same impression.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Beethoven_ist_cool]

I loved it. I used to listen to classical all the time for a while, I got tired of it then I came back. One can never tire of Beethoven though

[Rod]

Originally posted by Beethoven_ist_cool:
I loved it. I used to listen to classical all the time for a while, I got tired of it then I came back. One can never tire of Beethoven though

Of course you love it. Appologies for the delay with op.50, I'm on holiday at the moment. Next week things will be back to normal.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin